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Old 07-14-2003, 03:08 PM   #26
Dave Miller
 
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Quote:
Louis Amberg (ewodaj) wrote:
...if someone was up close to you and had a gun pointed at you, there are ways you can subdue him and take the gun away from him...
Would you mind sharing some of those ways with the rest of us?

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 07-14-2003, 03:09 PM   #27
ewodaj
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
Does Aikido help with bullets?

I would say that people who take up Aikido to learn how to fight are a little misled, not so much because Aikido can't help them but because that's not a useful thing to learn (except in the limited context of competitions). Maybe a better goal, closer to what you are looking for, Louis, is taking up Aikido in order to learn how to survive fights. It may seem like a subtle shift, but I would claim that it's an important one.
you make some good points opher, but I dont think its fair to say people who take up aikido to learn how to fight are misled...its a martial art and like I said before a large amount of people take up martial arts to learn how to fight and defend themselves...im not talking nonsense here, but you ask a fair amount of people why do you take up martial arts for? one of the main reason they will say is it defend myself if a dangerous or bad situation arises in which I need to protect myself from whatever I see as a threat...I think its fair to say people who take up aikido or any other martial art for that matter just because they want to beat people up are misled...the people who learn martial arts to defend themselves just in case a dangerous situation presents itself are the ones who arent misled
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Old 07-14-2003, 03:12 PM   #28
ewodaj
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Quote:
Dave Miller wrote:
Would you mind sharing some of those ways with the rest of us?
im just saying they are ways dave...I never had a gun pointed at me nor have I ever been attacked on the streets...obviously, if someone is shooting at you aikido or basically any other martial art cant help you no matter what...
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Old 07-14-2003, 03:25 PM   #29
drDalek
 
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Quote:
Louis Amberg (ewodaj) wrote:
im just saying they are ways dave...I never had a gun pointed at me nor have I ever been attacked on the streets...obviously, if someone is shooting at you aikido or basically any other martial art cant help you no matter what...
I think most tanto disarms where the tanto is pressed against your neck or chest can be adapted to disarm an assailant threatening you with a muzzle pressed against you.

I have tried some gun disarms with a friend with a water pistol, if you get squirted before pointing the muzzle away from yourself then you might as well throw the technique out and try another one.

Further than point blank range and more determined than just "trying to threaten" you and you might as well just run or try and find cover.
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Old 07-14-2003, 03:40 PM   #30
Cyrijl
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zig-zag

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 07-14-2003, 03:49 PM   #31
shihonage
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Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
...

Here's me thinking is was about Love, Respect, Harmony, Nature and the Universe.

Ever read anything by O Sensei?
Quote:
Carl Simard wrote:
Don't forget that although aikido is a martial art, it's a "do", a way or a path in the spiritual or philosophical sense. It's not a "jutsu", or "combat technique".

...

So, if your goal is combat effectiveness, your probably better to train in something where combat effectiveness is the first goal...
Quote:
Ryan Bertram (acot) wrote:
Aikido isn't something you train in to learn how to fight. Unless your job requires such a skill. Some call Aikido a martial art, Morihei Ueshiba called it the art of peace. It is with only a year of training under my belt that I can say that it is going to take a long time to master even some of the basics. To believe that it is worth my while to take all that time and effort for a moment in my life that may or may not happen is completely insane and paranoid.

In this last year Aikido has help me control my temper and keep my center when things in life aren't going as well. To me I guess the fight or test isn't against anyone but my own worst enemy. ME.

WARNING: Neophyte Overload !

Abandon ship ! Abandon ship !!


Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
Make friends with people in other arts and have friendly, but spirited, shiai with them.
Or, take example from Bob S., and start abusing little children.

Sorry Bob, I am not letting that one go

Last edited by shihonage : 07-14-2003 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 07-14-2003, 04:16 PM   #32
jvadakin
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reducto ad absurdum

Unfortunately, the sound point behind this thread is obscured by bad rhetoric. The point, I think, is:

A: Aikido is a martial art.

B: Martial arts should be combat effective (in addition to helpful in avoiding conflict or defusing it or running away etc . . .)

C: How would one judge the combat effectiveness of his Aikido?

Someone somewhere above remarked that the author of this thread was paranoid to concern himself to such an extent with the unlikely event of an attack. The statement about picking a fight in a bar was absurd, and was justifiably flamed. However, it isn't absurd to expect that you are getting some sort of tangible return for your hard-earned dojo tuition! If I am only gaining spiritually and not improving my ability to defend myself in the unlikely event of an attack, then I am not getting my money's worth. I could have stayed home and read the Bible or some such all those hours! The author of the post desires a way to test his gains realistically. Perhaps he should listen to the person who recommended sparing with other martial artists. I'm very new to Aikido myself, and I'm not sure that competition is such a bad thing. Growing up I was never too concerned if my sports teams won or lost as long as I learned something and had a good time. I guess the problem is that it is fairly difficult to execute Aikido techniques at full speed without dislocating a joint. My solution is to cross train in Judo as soon as I can find a dojo. I think I would gain from a synergy of the two.
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Old 07-14-2003, 04:40 PM   #33
kensparrow
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Re: reducto ad absurdum

Quote:
James Vadakin (jvadakin) wrote:
Unfortunately, the sound point behind this thread is obscured by bad rhetoric. The point, I think, is:

A: Aikido is a martial art.

B: Martial arts should be combat effective (in addition to helpful in avoiding conflict or defusing it or running away etc . . .)

C: How would one judge the combat effectiveness of his Aikido?
Thanks for getting to the heart of the matter James.

I think you can do spirited randori or sparring and get a decent idea what you are capable of from a technique stand point, but it's still a long way from a real life and death situation. You don't really know how you are going to react when you're scared or angry or reeling from a bare knuckle shot to the mouth. Short of the ridiculous bar fight scenario, I think you need to accept the fact that you will just never know until you know.
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Old 07-14-2003, 04:57 PM   #34
opherdonchin
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Quote:
you make some good points opher, but I dont think its fair to say people who take up aikido to learn how to fight are misled
Thanks, Louis. I think James is right, though, and we're getting off topic. In order to keep from derailing the thread (again), I'm going to respond to the rest of your note privately.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 07-14-2003, 05:03 PM   #35
Dave Miller
 
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Re: Re: reducto ad absurdum

Quote:
Ken Sparrow (kensparrow) wrote:
I think you can do spirited randori or sparring and get a decent idea what you are capable of from a technique stand point...
We have some "spirited randori" on the boards, from time to time.

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 07-14-2003, 05:41 PM   #36
Mel Barker
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Quote:
Louis Amberg (ewodaj) wrote:
...obviously, if someone is shooting at you aikido or basically any other martial art cant help you no matter what...
Well, if your martial art involves the carrying of a firearm and training in marksmanship and combat tactics, it might be of assistance.

Mel Barker
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Old 07-14-2003, 05:42 PM   #37
willy_lee
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Re: Re: reducto ad absurdum

Quote:
Ken Sparrow (kensparrow) wrote:
You don't really know how you are going to react when you're scared or angry or reeling from a bare knuckle shot to the mouth. Short of the ridiculous bar fight scenario, I think you need to accept the fact that you will just never know until you know.
Good posts, Ken and James.

Adrenal-stress training and scenario training can help. But I agree that you will never "know" until you're in it.

=wl
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Old 07-14-2003, 05:45 PM   #38
Dave Miller
 
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Quote:
Mel Barker wrote:
Well, if your martial art involves the carrying of a firearm and training in marksmanship and combat tactics, it might be of assistance.

Mel Barker
Indeed. The earliest known martial arts system (from Egypt) included training in hand-to-hand combat up to advanced "city seige" techniques, with appropriate weapons training.

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 07-14-2003, 05:49 PM   #39
willy_lee
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Quote:
Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
zig-zag
By this I take it that you mean, "zig-zag when running away in hope of spoiling the bad guy's aim".

However, it may be worth considering whether it's better to add as much distance as possible instead of trying to spoil the aim of a guy who probably isn't a very good shot anyway. Obviously "it depends" -- and better to have obstacles, corners, to hide behind, as well as get bad guy reeling or eyes watering from a blow -- or return fire to get bad guy looking for cover as well...

=wl
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Old 07-14-2003, 06:03 PM   #40
paw
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Quote:
I think you can do spirited randori or sparring and get a decent idea what you are capable of from a technique stand point, but it's still a long way from a real life and death situation. You don't really know how you are going to react when you're scared or angry or reeling from a bare knuckle shot to the mouth. Short of the ridiculous bar fight scenario, I think you need to accept the fact that you will just never know until you know.
Quote:
Adrenal-stress training and scenario training can help. But I agree that you will never "know" until you're in it.
What is "real"? How do you define "real"? If "real" is just electrical impulses in the brain and adrenaline flowing through the system, isn't that "real" enough to "know"?

Ripping off "The Matrix",

Paul

PS -- the questions are retorical, no need to reply.
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Old 07-14-2003, 08:35 PM   #41
Carl Simard
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Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev (shihonage) wrote:
[b]WARNING: Neophyte Overload !
Well, maybe there was a neophyte overload, but, quoting Shiora Sensei from your own dojo (PAF):
Quote:
Some people join the school to gain confidence in a fighting situation. They have to realize that knowing self-defense techniques and being confident are not necessarily the same. Techniques belong to physical training and confidence to philosophical and mental training. This suggests that you train with breathing exercises and meditation as well as Aikido techniques. In the end the best self-defense for you is knowing techniques and keeping yourself alert and calm
Quote:
Aikido is one of the East Asian ways of training that tries to lead us to find our true selves and helps us remain undisturbed by the dualism of win or lose, good or bad, by going beyond them.
Quote:
The purpose of martial arts is not necessarily winning, but rather not losing. This attitude potentially affects how to behave in any situation, and defines a crucial difference between martial arts and sports. Martial arts have a deeper meaning than sport. Particularly Japanese martial arts would be better defined as "martial way (of life)".
All these quotes from the web page of your own dojo... PAF

Quite similar to what, us, simple neophytes have said... Maybe you should go to your sensei and tell him that his view of aikido is quite "neophyte" and explain him what he has missed all these years...
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Old 07-14-2003, 09:32 PM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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masakatsu agatsu katasu hayabi.

on the other hand;

sho chiku bai.

Take your pick, but be willing to suffer the consequences.

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-14-2003, 11:59 PM   #43
opherdonchin
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Quote:
Carl wrote:
Maybe you should go to your sensei and tell him that his view of aikido is quite "neophyte" and explain him what he has missed all these years...
The point was nicely made, but there was no need to follow it up with this sarcasm. The sarcasm only undermines the point.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 07-15-2003, 07:56 AM   #44
Kensai
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How about this, Aikido, is like one of those funny drawings you look at and people see different things.

It is what it is.

Although my eariler post would suggest otherwise, I'm not really into "peace and love". But those Aikidoka or Budoka that "I" am inspired by, have an understanding of such concepts that I'll never really understand.

I see Aikido as more than just martial. Taking away the more martial side of Aikido does indeed take away its fangs, but remove the philosphy of love and understanding that Morihei Ueshiba tried to convey and you take away its heart.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 07-15-2003, 08:38 AM   #45
MikeE
 
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Wynand,

You said that if you lost a fight you would rededicate yourself to your training. I find that a very mature attitude. Understanding that it would be you, and not the art that had shortcomings.

Here's a suggestion: Treat everyday as though you have lost a fight. Eventually fighting won't be the center of your training. You will come to realize self-victory is where its at. When this happens then you will be really, really good.

Mike Ellefson
Midwest Center
For Movement &
Aikido Bukou
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Old 07-15-2003, 09:37 AM   #46
Nick P.
 
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Quote:
Wynand van Dyk (drDalek) wrote:
The problem is how to get rid of these questions in the most honest, straight forward way without getting killed or permanently injured.
Like ego on the mat, just let it go.
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Old 07-15-2003, 12:09 PM   #47
bob_stra
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Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev (shihonage) wrote:
WARNING: Neophyte Overload !

Abandon ship ! Abandon ship !!


Or, take example from Bob S., and start abusing little children.

Sorry Bob, I am not letting that one go
Best Bruce Lee voice -

"Kids...no...hit...back".

(well they do, but you know, puny arms)

Now, back OT...

Is this an actual question or a brain fart? ;-)

The answer is obvious - progressive resistance in training, leading all the way upto full randori.

Here's is a theoretical description (wordy and advitorial as it is -

http://www.rmax.tv/nature.html

I suspect the practicalities of putting this advice to good use is what Wynand is caught on?

In which case, try to find like minded indivduals to practice with. Cross training is also a real and valuable option. Members here will attest to the use of Judo as an adjunct. I prefer MMA & BJJ - more is allowed in standup. (yes, I try to use Aikido in these circumstances. With little success. Thought that's probably just my ineptness)

Failing that, there's always kids and dogs... ;-)

(said in jest, but true none the less. They're unpredictable, fun, and energetic. A game of tag offers a good training session)
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Old 07-15-2003, 01:56 PM   #48
shihonage
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Quote:
Carl Simard wrote:
Well, maybe there was a neophyte overload, but, quoting Shiora Sensei from your own dojo (PAF):
[quotes]

All these quotes from the web page of your own dojo... PAF

Quite similar to what, us, simple neophytes have said... Maybe you should go to your sensei and tell him that his view of aikido is quite "neophyte" and explain him what he has missed all these years...
You quoting these fragments was in a way self-defeating.

As you can see, Mr. Shiohira does not dismiss the martial validity of Aikido.

In fact, he is known to stress the fact that Aikido is a MARTIAL art, during class.

Moreso, he doesn't refer to is as an "art of peace", or as a "way of life".

In the quote that you cited here, he explicitly says "martial way of life".

There's a tendency that is too common, and that is to completely forsake the martial side of Aikido, and start going off in the direction of "How it makes my life better and I am a lot calmer when talking to my boss. Look, I can make an unbendable finger !".

The number of people going in this direction in this particular thread has exceeded my tolerance threshhold, and hence I posted that reply.
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Old 07-15-2003, 02:36 PM   #49
bob_stra
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"Look, I can make an unbendable finger!"

LOL
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Old 07-15-2003, 03:27 PM   #50
Alfonso
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being calm with the boss has "saved my life" many more times than any fighting ability I may have.

so you find this unworthy?

oh well

Alfonso Adriasola
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