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Old 07-07-2003, 11:00 AM   #26
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
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No, no. Lust is good... very good. If you don't believe it, ask all those old men buying boxes of little Viagra pills for whom lust 'just isn't'.

Also, as far as going to great lengths to calculate the resulting harm or benefits of one's actions - this doesn't sound very zen to me at all. That's certainly not what I took away from it. I thought the idea was more to get out of the calculating, judgement-making inner dialogue and just be responsive and awake in the present moment - the assumption being that living in this simpler way will automatically result in better living for oneself, and more appropriate responses to one's context/circumstances above and beyond judgements of good, bad, benefit, or harm.
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Old 07-07-2003, 01:01 PM   #27
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Quote:
Jo wrote:
well since the quote you posted has pretty much nothing to do with any Buddhist teaching i ever heard i suppose you're correct.
I feel like you are missing my point. At the heart of every story I've heard of the origins of Buddhism and what it has to offer is a basic distaste with suffering, old age, illness and death. If nothing else, than the Siddhartha story exemplifies this powerfully. Buddhism has often been sold to me (in writing) as a way of 'conquering' suffering and death. In this way, it is not much different in my mind from Christianity.

Perhaps your Buddhism is different. Many different things wander around the world calling themselves Buddhism. However, my point is that this 'aversion to suffering' that I've encountered is neither a wild mis-reading nor a vanishingly small aspect of the religion.

That is the validity of Kevin's point (as I understood it) that I'm asking you to accept. There's an underlying philosophical point for me, here. I think every human endeavor has its flaws and achilles heels. I think that the more attached we become to an endeavor, the more imporant it is to keep those in mind (in 'awareness'). Aikido, Buddhism, and Love are no exception, I think.
Quote:
Jane wrote:
I see my lust as an element of my being. I accept it and on occasion give in to it so long as the spirit of my intent is neither harmful to myself nor another.
Is this really what you manage to do in all situations, or is this more of an aspiration. I have the same aspiration (more or less), but I'm curious if I'm the only one who does not achieve it.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 07-07-2003, 04:04 PM   #28
ikkainogakusei
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Quote:
I wrote:
I see my lust as an element of my being. I accept it and on occasion give in to it so long as the spirit of my intent is neither harmful to myself nor another
Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
Is this really what you manage to do in all situations, or is this more of an aspiration. I have the same aspiration (more or less), but I'm curious if I'm the only one who does not achieve it.
Uh, hmm well it would be laughable to say that I am perfect. It has been a path of lessons through life. With regard to the most obvious manifestation of lust [being sex]I haven't ever been disloyal to a lover or partner in my lustful pursuits. I had twice [in more youthful times] expressed a want to have 'no strings attached' to a friend and might not have seen that though they verbally agreed, the spirit of their intent did not follow the same path. Lesson Learned. No more 'no-strings' it's an illusion anyway.

As for lusts which come in other manifestations, uh well I do live in California, so I am often informed about which manufacturer has employed slave or prison labor to make their products, and when I think it is a legitamate source, I make an effort to aviod that product. I own very little, and do not aspire to rule the world. I don't think I need a sport-ute, diamonds, a Pacific cruise every Summer, or digital cable. At the same time I don't lecture my friends or family about wanting such things because I think such lectures don't often come from a clean source.

With regard to the 'no harm' aspect, I do eat meat, I'm pretty much an omnivore, because I think that meat is not the only living food. I couldn't follow Jainism [ironic eh?], there is a cycle of life which we are a part of. Plus, I don't think it is very 'middle road'.

There may be another element of what I said that you might see, but I haven't included; are we looking at more than lust?


"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Old 07-07-2003, 04:15 PM   #29
Qatana
 
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Probably you need to have direct experience of Buddhist Practice to understand. We are using the same words but they mean different things.Context changes with each experience.Which is something my sensei, and his, are interested in exploring- how the identity changes with each technique.

And the meanings of words, given different contexts, are still entirely subjective. For example where Kevin says "Lust is good" i would prefer to say "sex is good". In my book "lust" means "obsessive and probably unhealthy desire" but it also means "wanting to have sex with a person i am attracted to and may love or come to love" and "sex" means "something fun to do with another person which may be an expression of love or lead to love or just might be a hormonal adjustment" and "love" is "caring for another being with whom i may or may not be having sex with or may be my dog Tigger"

So the meanings of words change with the context and the individual. Aren't there words that have different meanings to you now than before you began Aikido?

And so there is suffering. And there is a path out of suffering but that doesn'T mean aversion to suffering- we ALL have an aversion to suffering.

If you had spent the first twenty years of your life in isolation and luxury as Siddhartha did, how do you think you would react to the Real World when you encountered it? How do you feel about getting old & weak & dying? It didn't bother the Buddha one little bit.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-07-2003, 04:17 PM   #30
Qatana
 
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And yeah, what Jane said

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-07-2003, 04:21 PM   #31
ikkainogakusei
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
No, no. Lust is good... very good. If you don't believe it, ask all those old men buying boxes of little Viagra pills for whom lust 'just isn't'.
You may feel that way, but ironically there is a problem that has arised with a subculture of men using a combination of Viagra and Crank [crystal methanphetamines] and having a lot of very unsafe sex. It is an extreme case, but applicable. Once again, not the middle road.

Here's one reference, not the best, but the first to come up. There are many more on Google.

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/4613
Quote:
Also, as far as going to great lengths to calculate the resulting harm or benefits of one's actions - this doesn't sound very zen to me at all.
There is more to Buddhism than Zen or Cha'an. Uh, and I don't think that I personally go to great lengths to calculate the resulting harm. I think I wouldn't be able to eat or drive or deficate or breathe really; if that were the case. I try to take the middle road. I simply consider the spirit of my intent, knowing what I do know, rather than postulating what might be and attempting to calculate unending results. I try to live consciously, rather than simply reacting.
Quote:
I thought the idea was more to get out of the calculating, judgement-making inner dialogue and just be responsive and awake in the present moment
There is a book by Eckhart Tolle called The Power of Now that spends a lot of time in this. I really like the book, but I think it can be taken to an extreme, and not the middle road. The idea of 'You are not your Mind' is a good tool, but in extremes, it makes one an automiton.

"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Old 07-07-2003, 04:34 PM   #32
ikkainogakusei
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Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
Thank you Jane.What you said here: "... as the spirit of... intent is neither harmful to myself nor another"is exactly what i am talking about. Lust is neither good nor bad. It just Is.What we do with it, how we respond to it, is the true issue.Will this cause harm, or benefit, or neither, or both???
Uh, sure Happy to oblige. I think that this conversation might turn into a lot of chasing tails, but that can create a little exercise as well. Really, I get a lot from Buddhism, I mean more than just Middle Road, but I think spirituality it is such a personal thing. The aiki part I would like to impart to others with regard to spirituality is the whole Masakatsu Agatsu idea, and that it is manifest not only in martial practice, but others [like spirituality]. Really though, I can only call out from the other ridge as it were. My path up the mountain is still a different one.


"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Old 07-07-2003, 04:47 PM   #33
ikkainogakusei
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
You got me! There were no real points. All that verbose gibberish was just window dressing. I actually have no belief or genuine interest in any of the content of my posts here. I'm just a big meanie, and my sole purpose in posting is to hurt people's feelings. Curses, foiled again!
Okay, I just noticed this one.

So tempting, but somehow I think that it would be wrong to agree. Very funny.

"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Old 07-07-2003, 05:26 PM   #34
Qatana
 
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and i thought all he wanted was to argue...

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-07-2003, 06:14 PM   #35
ikkainogakusei
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One star? ouch.

Okay so how much worse is this conversation than Aikido and libido?

"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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