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Old 02-14-2003, 08:37 AM   #26
Andrew Wilson
Dojo: jiyushikan
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 31
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am I the only one who thinks the whole idea of this post is silly?

I dont think ANY martial style was created to do anything other then defend a person. I mean hell, its not like we are out there baking cookies.

Its a matter of application of those skills at the time, and frankly, I am finding people who want to know if "this is street effective" are just flat out scared of their own ability. Aikido, and NO OTHER MARTIAL ART is some magical system that will make you super street fighter. YOU have to apply the things you learn to a street situation.

thats my two cents on this whole crum.

I train in aikido, I trust not only in it, but in myself. That is enough proof for me. hearing stories of people gettin hurt/or hurting others is lame. I get to see that often enough.

"The wise man, after learning something new, is afraid to learn anything more until he has put his first lesson into practice." - Tzu Lu
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Old 02-14-2003, 09:57 AM   #27
faramos
Dojo: University of Chicago Aikido Club
Location: Chicago
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 36
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Response to Andrew

Well, I can't really dispute your position, Andrew, be it somewhat conflicting with several of the comments. Yet to an extent there are several valid points to be made here concerning how people view and practice Aikido. To be honest I feel I need to be blunt with others as to how it has benefited me mentally and phsyically. Its reassuring to know that other people have used Aikido in highly tense situations. As one of my sensei's often points out: "We train for the worst case senario because we are never sure what it may be. And if it is physical danger, then we understand the consequences and responsibilities we have to the person that wants to harm us and ourselves."

Sure, there are posts about injury and harm that we may not agree with, but as we all come to realize on and off the mat, responsilibity for our actions lies within ourselves. Sure, no assault or conflict is ever the same, but given the right amount of information about other bad situations- as well as the responses- we can only hope to improve, our understanding of what a worst case senario can be. That in itself is reason enough to take all points into consideration.
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Old 02-14-2003, 03:36 PM   #28
Chris Raywood
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Posts: 24
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In reply

This thread seems to be going off on a tangent that I hoped would not happen, but apparently is. I apologize for apparently not making myself clear.

My purpose in introducing this thread was to hopefully address the question posed in the beginning paragraph. I have been reviewing this site for several weeks, and seem to run into constant opinions and theories as to the street effectiveness of Aikido. "Aikido is effective", "No its not", "Yes it is", "No its not, Etc. etc, etc. On and on and on.

I think what finally got to me was a post by a person who determined that aikido was not street effective based on his review of several Ultimate Fighting Championship video tapes. I will admit the UFC is about as close as it gets, but there are still rules. There are no rules on the street. Maybe the guy is right, maybe the guy is wrong.

I wondered, Who is this man?, Has he ever got into the octagon with an Aikidoka? Has he ever got into the octagon at all? Has he been in multiple street fights so he can make this determination?

I have great respect for the vast majority of responents on this web site. They are educated and offer views that I highly regard.

I am however, getting very weary of a few self proclaimed "experts" that seems to know what techniques (and arts) will work and what will not. I tend to believe that if asked these "experts" would probably admit to their lack of actual combat experience that would qualify them to make such opinions and comments.

These "experts" are not restricted to this site. In particular, I tend to see many in publications such as Black Belt magazine. There they are (usually in the editorial column) finger pointing, proclaiming that their Kung Fu (or whatever)is better than this guy's Goju Ryu (or whatever) in a real street application. The thing that gets to me is that they never offer any "true" experience to back their claims.

So I though it might be useful to start a thread where Aikidoka might testify to actual experience. That way when I run into Mr. Videotape, I might direct him to testimony by Aikidoka that have used their techniqes succesfully in the "real" arena of the street.

I hope this clears the air.

With best regards,

Chris Raywood

PS I know that someone out there is going to wonder about me. To set the record straight, and as I mentioned before, I have been involved in jujutsu for just under twenty years, mostly Daito-Ryu influenced. I currently train in Nihon Goshin Aikido. I am fifty one years old, and like the vast majority out there I haven't been involved in fights since my grammar, high school and early collge days. Probably because I consume far less alcohol, and don't have to fight over girls anymore (my wonderful wife took care of that).
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Old 02-14-2003, 03:43 PM   #29
Andrew Wilson
Dojo: jiyushikan
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
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I don't need it to be validated. I don't need to hear, so and so people I have never met used it to protect themselves. There are people on the street who have protected themselves just fine with out aikido, so the point is mute. I would be just as inclined to care about their stories, which is not really much at all. Frankly, stories dont help ME when it is MY life on the line. Training your awareness and changing your mindset, thats a big part of it.

I am sorry for being so forward, but I hear this stuff all the time. I have come to a point where I dont even see styles anymore. I see techniques and tools to express principals and strategy. And no matter how you justify your training, being for health or for because it makes you feel good mentally, you are still talking about the same thing. A gun is a tool, it was designed to kill. There are MANY guns, and with use, killing is ALL that they do. I dont care if you collect them, shoot targets, hunt, or carry for protection. its still just a tool. One that only YOU can harness the potential as you see.

you would think that martial systems that have been working for years upon years, that has gone from wars to self defense, and back would be enough proof to people that its effective. People lived their entire LIVES on these things.

so do I.

"there are many tools, but only one weapon" - A. Clark Sensei

"The wise man, after learning something new, is afraid to learn anything more until he has put his first lesson into practice." - Tzu Lu
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Old 02-14-2003, 03:54 PM   #30
faramos
Dojo: University of Chicago Aikido Club
Location: Chicago
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I accept that opinion. A tool is a tool only so far as it can be used the way a person sees it fit. If the tool a person uses is to be viewed only as technique, then so be it. Best in your training.
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Old 02-14-2003, 05:12 PM   #31
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
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My son was walking home last year from work on major street here in Houston. A man approached him and began asking him for money. He told him several times that he didn't have any. He turned to walk away and suddenly the guy came up behind him, grabbed both his shoulders and pulled him backwards. It tore the shirt right off his back (he brought it home in two pieces). He said that as he was falling backwards, that he began instinctively turn, as we do in the dojo to face the roll. When he did, his eye caught the sight of the attackers hand, palm down still holding part of his shirt. He grabbed it as a sankyo, took a step to regain his balance and threw him backward in the sankyo as hard as he could. The guy hit the ground screaming in pain. My son walked off and left the scene quickly with onlookers at the bus stop shaking their heads at what they had just seen. He said that three blocks away, the guy was still screaming and had not gotten up from the ground.

A few days later, taking my son to work, we saw the man walking down the same street. He was well built and about 4 inches taller than my son. He has a full cast covering the palm of his hand running to the shoulder. It looked to me like he had several serious breaks. He saw where my son worked though and a week later someone drove by the store and took 3 shots at him (driveby). Thankfully, they all missed but one came within 5 inches of his head. I made him quit that day. Today, he works as a federal security officer in another city. He has been in aikido since he was 10 years old.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 02-14-2003, 05:50 PM   #32
ikkainogakusei
Location: All over CA
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Quote:
Andrew Wilson wrote:
I don't need it to be validated. I don't need to hear, so and so people I have never met used it to protect themselves. There are people on the street who have protected themselves just fine with out aikido, so the point is mute. <snip>Frankly, stories dont help ME when it is MY life on the line. Training your awareness and changing your mindset, thats a big part of it.
Respectfully, I think the point of this thread is not to say that if aikido is effective then it has the right to exist, but if it isn't then it should not be considered a martial art.

I also don't think that the start of this thread was mean't to condemn aikido for all time if the progenitor (of the thread) decides that the stories were not good enough evidence.

I think Mr. Raywood was simply wondering who has had that experience and could they please share it.

If you do not like such discussions or don't need to hear them(please excuse my bluntness) why get involved?

No disrespect intended Mr. Wilson. I have seen several threads that do not interest me, and I simply do not read those threads. I am not interested in the idea of the proverbial Mighty Mouse vs. Superman discussion or any manifestations thereof, but I just don't read them.

Respectfully,

me
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Old 02-14-2003, 10:46 PM   #33
Andrew Wilson
Dojo: jiyushikan
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 31
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I post, because I have a right to. I can express my thoughts just as much as anyone else. I dont agree with the need to validate, nor do I think that stories could even begin to broach upon the question.

If I am offending you by posting my thoughts... I appologize.

"The wise man, after learning something new, is afraid to learn anything more until he has put his first lesson into practice." - Tzu Lu
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Old 02-15-2003, 12:09 AM   #34
ikkainogakusei
Location: All over CA
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Quote:
Andrew Wilson wrote:
I post, because I have a right to. I can express my thoughts just as much as anyone else. I dont agree with the need to validate, nor do I think that stories could even begin to broach upon the question.

If I am offending you by posting my thoughts... I appologize.
I understand you have the right to do so, and truly I am not trying to preclude your rights. You do have the right to express your thoughts.

I guess what I'm trying to impart is that though you don't agree with the need to validate; why express frustration and caps_lock words in the direction of people who have the above conversation?

You are probably correct that anecdotal evidence is fallaciously applied here, but if I were interested in understanding what the experience of using the single-grip or double grip backhand in tennis was like, I might ask people. Now it is my understanding that Mr. Raywood hasn't had so much experience with altercations since he became aikidoka, so it doesn't hurt to ask.

Personally I find that I too read in to his request.I asked "What experience have you had that draws you to need to find this answer? What if there was no answer? What if you became the 'best' martial artist in the world, what would you do next?"

Some of that is because I am genuinely interested in other's answers to those questions, but to be frank, I projected on him the personality quirk of the practicioner who is always trying to prove their style is the right one through rhetoric. That isn't necessarily so. That was my preconceived notion because I have a connection to that question.

To his credit Mr. Raywood sent me a very well thought-out email which adressed my questions and he addressed that same frustration about the proverbial 'expert', and I think he reiterated in a post above in this thread.

So no I didn't take offense to your post, in fact I was trying to fashion mine so that it wasn't offensive as well. Maybe I came on too strong?

Respectfully,

me

PS Does this count as part of those 20 posts in the 'bickering' category Aleksey? I try not to be a bickerer.
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Old 02-15-2003, 02:36 AM   #35
Andrew Wilson
Dojo: jiyushikan
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
Jane Tao (ikkainogakusei) wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to impart is that though you don't agree with the need to validate; why express frustration and caps_lock words in the direction of people who have the above conversation?
we could go around and around about this. why for instance did you feel the need to express your opinion on my opinion and whatnot.

I was CAPS_LOCKING words because I thought they were important parts of the sentence. I didn't mean to get anyones goat, nor did I mean it in to start a bickering conversation.

-shrug-

"The wise man, after learning something new, is afraid to learn anything more until he has put his first lesson into practice." - Tzu Lu
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Old 02-15-2003, 05:44 AM   #36
Kelly Allen
Dojo: Friends Dojo
Location: Winnipeg
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Ai symbol I have one

I used to work in a bar as a bouncer bar tender. One of our local shit disturbers started a fight with another patron in the bar. I pulled him off the other patron and shoved him away. Since it was only the three of us in the bar at the time I asked both to leave. The one left willingly since his experience at the bar was ruined anyway. The local shit disturber however said he wasn't going anywhere. I calmly told him that I wasn't going to serve him any more so I didn't see the point in him staying. He threatened then to trash the place and me. I kept my calm and demeenor and told him that that would only accomplish 2 things 1 you would be place in jail for assault, win or lose, and vandalisim. 2 you wouldn't ever be allowed to come back to this bar again. Since he was aready barred from the other neighboring town bars, and already had a reputation with the police he then backed down and left the bar.

I wasn't studying Aikido at that time, but at that moment I was an Aikido master. I felt great that I was able to diffuse the situation where both of us walked away unscathed. He was back in the bar the next evening. I served him his usual and he was very respectful of the other people in the bar. In fact he was even friendly to me.

Last edited by Kelly Allen : 02-15-2003 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 02-15-2003, 06:07 AM   #37
Kelly Allen
Dojo: Friends Dojo
Location: Winnipeg
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Quote:
Andrew Wilson wrote:
I post, because I have a right to. I can express my thoughts just as much as anyone else. I dont agree with the need to validate, nor do I think that stories could even begin to broach upon the question.

If I am offending you by posting my thoughts... I appologize.
Sure you have a right to post. But what your posting is not what the thread was looking for. the thread originator has a right to hear the stories he's looking for. If you don't have a story then you have the right to not post it. I like these type of stories, and I have a right to be able to read the stories without haveing to sift through all these unrelated tangents. I could ignor you but then I would miss it when you had something related to the thread to say.
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Old 02-15-2003, 07:38 AM   #38
Andrew Wilson
Dojo: jiyushikan
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Quote:
Kelly Allen wrote:
Sure you have a right to post ... when you had something related to the thread to say.
I HAD something related to the thread to say. If the worth of aikido is related to how many stories you hear or tell about how you kicked some "local shits" teeth in at a bar, the so be it.

The point was simply that aikido's worth goes beyond your capacity to weld it. A gun is not and can not be dangerous unless you put it in someones hand. like I said, I couldnt think of a single martial art that isn't designed for the purpose of protection/self defense/war. I am the weapon, tools are how I keep myself alive. That includes firearms, knives, taser guns, batons, pepper spray...etc...

I have stated my views. As for my merits and stories, you dont even want to know the stuff I see.

"The wise man, after learning something new, is afraid to learn anything more until he has put his first lesson into practice." - Tzu Lu
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Old 02-15-2003, 07:58 AM   #39
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
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blood lust

Quote:
I'm looking for Aikidoka that have actually used techniques in a true defense situation.
Your question puts most aikidoists in a double-bind. (But, being trained in DR explains why you wouldn't understand that.)

Aikidoists (as well as most other martial artists) are generally taught that if they have to use actual techniques in a self-defense situation, they've already failed in their training. Therefore, if one were to admit to having used aikido waza in a self-defense situation, they would be admitting to a failure.

There is an article on a USAF Web site that describes how a NY City police officer uses aikido in his work on a regular basis. His examples are successes, not failures, because apprehending suspects is his job. For him, the use of aikido allows him to use the minimum amount of force to get the job done.
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Old 02-15-2003, 08:11 AM   #40
mike lee
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delusions everywhere

Quote:
I wasn't studying Aikido at that time, but at that moment I was an Aikido master.
Ha, ha, ha, LOL, snort, ha.

Right. I went swimming one day and for a brief moment was Neptune, god of the sea.
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Old 02-15-2003, 08:17 AM   #41
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
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Andrew Wilson wrote:

I post, because I have a right to. I can express my thoughts just as much as anyone else. I dont agree with the need to validate, nor do I think that stories could even begin to broach upon the question. If I am offending you by posting my thoughts... I appologize.

Sir, you post because your are allowed that privilege to post, as the rest of us. It is not our right. As for the effectiveness of Aikido in a real situation. Yes I have used it and was very successfully myself in resent history in downing two muggers. A student who was a guard of a work group (chain gang) in Florida was in the process of being decapitated by a big man with a swing blade and used the only training he had (Aikido) to throw and disarm the bad guy. On the other hand a 6'5" biker who worked as a bouncer in a bar in Pensacola and was in all rights a very bad dude died when a little lady stuck a knife in his kidney while he tried to keep her husband for beating her to death. Now knowing all this what the hell difference does it make. Let me ask you does you jujitsu work in real combat? Have you used it in war? I know several of us Aikidoka that have relied at least in part on Aikido training to keep us alive in bad situations. You know what my fried? All this does not matter a hoot or help me in any way. It is what we are doing today with our life and the art we selected to help make it better that matters! I won't get into any more hand to hand combat situation if I can help it. If the situation is dire enough for me to go that far then I will expertly use the legally obtained and licensed concealed weapon. I hope you take no offence at this post but this thread is moving through every Aikido list and mostly generated my people outside Aikido and mostly by those that have never been in a real life and death situation from what they say. From my late teens through my 60 years I have not been witness to, or part of any serious physical confrontation that has not lead to serious injury or death. Even if your, mine or their art works are you or they willing to cripple, maim or kill to remain safe. I know some that thought they were but could not do it even at the expense of their own safety.

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
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Old 02-15-2003, 12:48 PM   #42
faramos
Dojo: University of Chicago Aikido Club
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I'd like to know

If you please then, Mr. Wilson, I would like to know a story that you have been involved in. I think many people would. None of us at Aikiweb have the right to judge the merits of your case. We just want to know how you've handled a situation whether it be with or without Aikido techniques. Maybe we've done the same thing, in a similar situation, maybe we have not. In either case, I'd like to know more about your mat/non-mat experiences.
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Old 02-15-2003, 03:27 PM   #43
Dan Bruce
Dojo: aikido of Commerce Ga.
Location: Toccoa, Ga.
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I believe when it comes down to it in most situations when someone attacks a person the first thing most people do is freakout and forget thier training. You have to always be aware of your surroundings, and never underestimate anyone. Most people however will never have to use any martial arts ever in your entire life. Unless you work in law enforcement like me and have to deal with hostile people on a day to day basis. Yes Aikido is effective in street combat. Some of my fellow officers say a little too effective because most of the time they want to beat the snot out of the person. When most times I can actually be putting the handcuffs on before the perp has even finished moving from his first and only punch.
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Old 02-15-2003, 04:12 PM   #44
Andrew Wilson
Dojo: jiyushikan
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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To Dennis

That has been my point the whole time! Aikido isn't a math equation where 2+2 always equals 4. It should, but it really depends on your ability to calculate that. I hadn't thought of the angle of "if you are capable of hurting someone" I was thinking more of the angle of "you might poo your pants". getting into a fight where someone is literraly going to beat the tar out of you if you mess up isnt something most people train for. So stories about people who have succeded or failed means little in the scheme of things.

This isn't to discount the stories of people who have gotten in fights, this isnt to say that I like fighting, this is simply saying that there isnt a cookie cut answer about aikido's effectiveness, or heck any martial arts effectiveness.

I am training for the police department out here. In my training we get to see pictures of victims, go on ride alongs and meet/see them in real life. On one particular instance I saw 4 officers attacked by one guy at two locations. He bloodied up one of them, and went to jail in far worse shape. Ever have to pick teeth up off the floor for evidence?

Aikido is just one tool to use to help myself go home at night, and to help others do the same. What I like about aikido more so then anyother style isnt so much that it is effective, but because the principals that are conved in the techniques. proper force for one comes to mind. I for one, dont want to smash peoples heads into the floor if I don't need to... but I could.

I guess I am not sure where the arguement and problem is in this conversation. I know aikido is great, or maybe better put great for me. If it works for you in fight situations fantastic. I am just saying that what works for someone else may not work for you. simply put you are the key in making aikido work.

"The wise man, after learning something new, is afraid to learn anything more until he has put his first lesson into practice." - Tzu Lu
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Old 02-15-2003, 07:05 PM   #45
faramos
Dojo: University of Chicago Aikido Club
Location: Chicago
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Yes,

I've had to do such work as an assistant to a law enforcement crime scene investigator. It is not pleasant and at the same time it seems almost surreal. I've also had to deal with the ID and forensics of persons in hospitals. I know there are times when I wanted to the victim to have a free shot at the criminal, and the police also. Personally, it has done quite a number to jade me every now and then. One persons works who've helped me though is Frank Doran sensei. Having previously spent over ten years doing other martial arts prior to Aikido, his views on conflict interactions most refreshing. In fact, friends in law enforcement and I have discussed how his ideas and methodologies have been a major help in learning about personal growth and resolute vantage points at places like crime scenes. Thank goodness for sensei and others like him.
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Old 02-15-2003, 11:35 PM   #46
Kelly Allen
Dojo: Friends Dojo
Location: Winnipeg
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Re: delusions everywhere

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Ha, ha, ha, LOL, snort, ha.

Right. I went swimming one day and for a brief moment was Neptune, god of the sea.
Swimming isn't the only time you think your a god. JK!
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:00 PM   #47
Chris Raywood
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Chris wrote

[quote="Chris Raywood"]This thread seems to be going off on a tangent that I hoped would not happen, but apparently is.
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