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Old 02-11-2003, 10:18 PM   #26
Edward
Location: Bangkok
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I think it all has been said, but let me add one more remark. Usually in aikido Nage executes the technique while uke is still holding for the obvious reasons of keeping the harmony and the connection between the 2 persons.

However, all aikido techniques against hand grabs have a variant in which nage eventually grabs uke's hand in order to throw him, not relying on uke to keep the hold, and roles are thus reversed. Uke in this case not only cannot let go, but also he cannot control his fall and will usually have to do a high-fall. The throw is also much more powerful.

At our dojo, we usually practice the first way because uke can choose the moment to let go and do a soft roll, while the second way leaves him no choice.
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Old 02-12-2003, 07:05 AM   #27
Erik Young
Dojo: Wilmington Kokikai Dojo
Location: Downingtown
Join Date: Jan 2003
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I recently had some direct experince with this idea of effective/non-effective wrist grabs.

I've recently returned to training after a 10 year lay off (ok...I quit.... ). Anyway, at my former dojo, I studied about 5 or 6 years...attained a rank of 3rd kyu (Iwama style). I was pretty good (although not near as good as I thought ).

Now, here I am starting all over again. I'm at a kokikai dojo and it's a whole new ball-game. I'm having to pay a lot of attention to details that escaped me whan I was younger (due to variosu reasons), but I'm finding that with every class I'm learning about 3 new things about familiar techniques...with each class.

Anway, we recently did a class fopcusing on various shionage techniques, particularly wrist grabs. One of the things that I was corrected for was my technique while doing katate dor shihongae irimi. This school is now using two versions...the old version (thjat I was doing) and a slightly different newer version.

In the old version, as nage enters and takes uke's balance, nage is supposed "look at his watch" (as my old sensie would do it). Basically putting the wirst hiorizontal in front of himself. The problem that was demonstrated to me by Sensei is that uke's hand gets turned over and uke has a very difficult time maintaining much of a grip. The new style goes put nage taking his wrist from the horizontal position and raising it up uinto a vertical position where nage can look at the palm of his own hand, nage then can reach around in front, take uke's wrist and finish the shihonage. In this case, uke can maintain a firmer grasp on the wrist, but nage is still able to take uke's balance and complete the technique.

Anyway, what I took away from this is that one has to be aware of things like uke's attack in order to execute proper technique. Sure, I can break uke's balance and make uke "let go", but I might be better off slightly adjusting my technique to uke's energy in order to maintain connection. This stirkes me as a rather advanced concept, not something easily perceived or executed by rank beginners (hell, look how long it took me to get it?). It's not that the training is artificial (ok, it is), but there is a simple logic behind it...if someone is pushed m passed thei rlimits too quickly...they'll never get it. It's about behavioral shaping...working htrough gradual approximations of the ideal until one reaches the ideal.

Anyway, that's my experience.. Happy training.

Peace,

Erik

HAve you heard the one about the agnostic dyslexic? He wasn't sure if he believed in the existence of Dog.
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Old 02-12-2003, 01:44 PM   #28
jimvance
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Mesa, AZ
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Quote:
Jun wrote:
Oh, geez. I just realized I wiped out Jim Vance's great response to Joseph by hitting the "edit" button rather than the "quote" button. I tried to see if I had the original posting in my cache, but I didn't.

Sorry, Jim... My apologies.
No worries, they were just words. I have plenty more.

Jim
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Old 02-12-2003, 10:05 PM   #29
Chris Tan
Dojo: Aikido Shinju-Kai
Location: Singapore
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My instructor would always demonstrate the value of a katate-dori attack to us using Shihonage as an example. If the uke grabs the nage's wrist and nage doesn't move or move fast enough, the uke then can then continue with a shihonage attack.

I think it was Sugano sensei who said in one of our seminars that (excuse my paraphrasing) at the beginners level, nage lets uke initiate the attack (i.e. grab the wrist or do a shomenichi strike) before responding with a technique. At the intermediate level, as uke initiates the attack, nages responds accordingly at the same time. At the advanced level, nage initiates the attack and continues the technique when uke responds (with a grab or a block/strike).

At our dojo, we are always practicing letting the beginners grab our wrist in order to let them have a chance to practice. But for the more advanced students, we are always told to think of "leading" (through tenkan or other movement) rather than to think of throwing. Ukes never really get a chance to get a firm grasp on the nage's wrist.
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Old 02-13-2003, 08:35 AM   #30
bob_stra
Location: Australia
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Re: Keeping a hold on wrist?

Re: wrist grabs.

They seem to happen all the time for me in MMA. Infact I specifically set the other guy so he has to "wrist grab".

Eg: We're punching, I move. we tie up. I grab his wrist. I let him wiggle out. He grabs my wrist.

OR

We're playing open palm strike, I put my palm on his face. He bats it away. I do it again, he grabs it.

OR

We punching. I annoy the other guy with stop hits / jab catch drill. He starts to do the same, eventually catching my fist.

I've not been able to do anything with these wrist grabs yet (my aikido is still too new), but I can see the opportunity.

One day.... <evil grin> someone gets to meet Mr Sankyo.

FWIW.
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Old 02-13-2003, 06:15 PM   #31
PeterPhilippson
Dojo: Stockport Aikido Club
Location: Manchester, UK
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Quote:
Phill Green (Gopher Boy) wrote:
Hi Anderson (and all!)

The topic seems to have gotten a little lost in my view.

In my experience, having the attacker continue to hold the wrist is very important early on. The reason? Well, if he/she didn't then the technique would not be able to be completed. Simple as that. It would be exceptionally hard to learn aikido that way.

phill
You don't need a sword to punish an attacker who lets go: you just hit them!

One of the nice things is that, having learned to defend against wrist holds, when you come to defend against punches, it is so much easier, as the attacker is moving.

But attackers do grab people: a man tried to drag my wife into a car (pity for him she's nidan aikido!). People grab you to pull you into a punch, or onto the ground ...

Best wishes,

Peter

Peter
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Old 02-14-2003, 02:17 AM   #32
shihonage
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Quote:
Peter Philippson (PeterPhilippson) wrote:
But attackers do grab people: a man tried to drag my wife into a car (pity for him she's nidan aikido!).
What happened ?
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Old 02-14-2003, 12:59 PM   #33
PeterPhilippson
Dojo: Stockport Aikido Club
Location: Manchester, UK
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Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev (shihonage) wrote:
What happened ?
She hit him hard and he changed his mind.

Peter

Peter
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Old 03-09-2003, 12:41 PM   #34
cindy perkins
Dojo: AikiDog Dojo
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I have been told, when my uke lets go, that I have been too abrupt in my entry. As I begin a technique, uke should still feel "in control" until the point that their balance is gone and hanging on or letting go becomes unimportant. I have found also that when I am uke for a skilled practitioner, I grab like I mean to keep them from leaving (probably so I can punch with the other hand), and then there's no more opportunity to think about it. It seems to me that Joseph's problem may go back to those who taught him; either he did not ask or they did not successfully teach how and why we grab.

P.S. As a woman, I find the likelihood of a wrist grab being used in a "real situation" quite high!
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Old 03-09-2003, 10:01 PM   #35
JW
 
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Quote:
Cindy Perkins (cindy perkins) wrote:
I have been told, when my uke lets go, that I have been too abrupt in my entry. As I begin a technique, uke should still feel "in control" until the point that their balance is gone and hanging on or letting go becomes unimportant.
Now THAT is cool. I think that is how it should be: nage encourages the initial attack.
Often, as the posts here reflect, people teach that it is all up to uke to maintain the grab. In other words nage's role is limited to either aggressively encouraging uke to hang on (by threatening an atemi).. which is good but limited in my opinion.. or desperately preventing uke from seperating (by masterfully taking balance).. which when successful is really cool, but this is very difficult and therefore I feel it is not very fail-safe.

Something that is much simpler and readily accessible is to encourage and foster what uke has already decided to do: grab. I think in combination with the other ideas discussed in this thread, this makes for very effective and realistic training.
Cindy, what tradition of aikido is your teacher from? Just curious.
--JW
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Old 03-09-2003, 11:15 PM   #36
shadow
Dojo: Aiki Kun Ren (Iwama style)
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Quote:
Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
what i was responding to was not when you grab someone's wristy and then do a move, but rather when one is told to hold onto someone else's wrists who is practising the move. It is ridiculous to train in a way that is so artificial. If you need to let go, let go.....

this is different than an offensive wrist grab, if you are attacking, then it is obvious you don't let go.
as was stated before if you let go you get hit.

when i grab my sensei even if his arm is not aiming towards me he feels like a tightly wound spring and i know if i let go i will get thrown prematurely and akwardly or hit. so i hold on till he lets me let go. thats something we train to focus all your attention on uke, uke should have the feeling that it is undesirable to let go at any point.

also as mentioned a hand grip can happen from anything, just cos someone wants to grab or because they are trying to neutralise an offensive movement. either way a grab is still a linear movement and just a more basic workable model of any other form of linear movement, ie punch.

so for basic training we grip to give nage something to work with and at more advanced we just punch.

happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 03-12-2003, 12:42 AM   #37
cindy perkins
Dojo: AikiDog Dojo
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JW --

Isn't it awful? I don't know what tradition my teacher is from. I know that our school is different from most in that we typically start a technique not in either hanmi, but square on to uke. (Uke often steps forward to strike.) Does that provide some hint?
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Old 03-12-2003, 02:25 AM   #38
Kelly Allen
Dojo: Friends Dojo
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nope!
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Old 03-12-2003, 07:09 AM   #39
kensparrow
Dojo: Methuen Aikido
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Quote:
Cindy Perkins (cindy perkins) wrote:
I have been told, when my uke lets go, that I have been too abrupt in my entry. As I begin a technique, uke should still feel "in control" until the point that their balance is gone and hanging on or letting go becomes unimportant.
I really like that. It puts the focus on dealing with what uke is really giving you (a weak grab in this case) and not on what you expect him to give. I'll have to remember that the next time I get to work with a brand new student who hasn't been told the "correct" way to grab. It's a lot nicer than hitting him in the face and saying "see what happens when you let go!"

Thanks for the insight.
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Old 03-17-2003, 02:48 PM   #40
cindy perkins
Dojo: AikiDog Dojo
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My teacher tells me his sensei learned from Todd Sensei. Helps?
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Old 03-17-2003, 07:53 PM   #41
JW
 
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Quote:
Cindy Perkins (cindy perkins) wrote:
My teacher tells me his sensei learned from Todd Sensei. Helps?
Hmm... no but I guess I could look him up. Anyway I asked because I wondered if you were talking about concepts from a branch of aikido that is already known or unknown to me.... I guess my question is answered!

I'll keep an eye out for the non-starting-in-hanmi style. Thanks!

--JW
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Old 03-23-2003, 02:42 PM   #42
Daniel Blanco
Dojo: Suffolk Aikikai
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TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN AIKIDO MOVES TRAIN YOU TO DEAL WITH ATTACKS WHEN SOMEONE ATTACKS YOU THEY USUALLY ATTACK AND GRAB ONTO YOU AND THERE INTEND IS TO TAKE YOU DOWM/GET YOU OFF BALANCE AIKIDO HAS PROVEN SUCCESS IN MY NYPD POLICE WORK
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