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Old 12-10-2002, 09:43 AM   #26
MikeE
 
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Dojo: Midwest Center For Movement & Aikido Bukou Dojos
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Once again. I can't wait till I have it all figured out like our friend Bruce.

It's just that easy.


Mike Ellefson
Midwest Center
For Movement &
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Old 12-12-2002, 04:46 AM   #27
Jappzz
 
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I dont see the problem. What's so mysterious about ki. We've all seen it work for proficient Aikidoka, and that would prove it's existenceas a concept. If its a paranormal phenomenon or just the end result of diligent training seems unimportant.

As for the "religious" aspects of aikido i can't understand what's so threatening about them.

As i see it they'r just mere expressions of very fundamental human concepts like harmony(the art itself or possibly meditation), greatfulness(bowing and other courtios acts) respect and compassion for your fellow man(the non-violent aspect of Aikido) etc.

Integral parts of most religions.

If you can love "thy fellow man" in the name of god or allah then why should that have to change when we walk into a dojo? Is it just because the means of expressing these concept are Japanese??

You're not a lesser christian just because you say "thanks" in japanese or label your "go-with-tha-flow" with a holistic asian koncept called KI.

Just my two cents

Jesper Arenskogh
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Old 12-12-2002, 11:26 AM   #28
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Thanks, Greg. That actually helped a lot.
Quote:
Greg wrote:
You know what a religion is, of course. Worship of some higher power - the Creator, God, Odin, Gaia, whatever you want to call it.
I actually would have probably called this a theology.

When I think about it, I think you're saying that if you 'recognize the existence' of something bigger than you than that is spirituality whereas if you 'worship' that something, then that would be religion. That's an interesting way to divide it up that I hadn't thought about before.
Quote:
When I started Aikido, I was a complete atheist, but after a couple years of going through the motions of the martial art, and after having those connections with people I found I was still developing spiritually without the context of a religion.
I deeply identify with this statement except that I'm willing (if pushed) to call this same thing a religioun.

Not that this discussion goes anywhere, really. It's just about the words.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 12-13-2002, 09:03 AM   #29
aikigreg
Dojo: Mizu Aikido
Location: Ft. Worth Texas
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
Thanks, Greg. That actually helped a lot.

When I think about it, I think you're saying that if you 'recognize the existence' of something bigger than you than that is spirituality whereas if you 'worship' that something, then that would be religion. That's an interesting way to divide it up that I hadn't thought about before.

I deeply identify with this statement except that I'm willing (if pushed) to call this same thing a religioun.
Something I said made sense for a change! What you think I'm saying is pretty close, except I would also add that connection/musubi with other beings is an important part of that, as is personal growth. Those people that you see that never change, never grow, and never tap into their potential I would call non-spiritual.

But I'd never call it a religion, though I think they can mesh very well together if you want them to. I think an Aikidoka who applied the concept of doing as little harm as possible is more suited to become a Spiritual Warrior than the Crusaders were.
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Old 12-13-2002, 09:20 PM   #30
jaime exley
Dojo: Aikido West
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It seems that there are as many versions of Aikido's spirituality as there are ways to do Shomenuchi Ikkyo. I won't bore anyone with my version of either in this forum, but I will share an interesting story with you.

There is a teacher in Japan for whom I have a great deal of admiration and affection. At the front of his dojo there is a scroll. The top two thirds of this scroll are filled with the Kanji for the words "Ai" and "Ki" while the bottom third (where the "do" would go) has been left blank. When asked about this scroll and the absense of the third word, Sensei has been known to reply... "this is the part you must discover for yourself".

I must admit that I am someone for whom Aikido is intensly spiritual, but if you ever catch me talking too much about it, please shut me up with a good strong kotegaeshi.
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Old 12-14-2002, 09:24 AM   #31
SeiserL
 
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IMHO, I think there are a lot of schools that teach more technical profiency and alignment over the philosphical jargon. If the school you train at has a different focus than what matches for you, try a different school.

OTOH, you can always reframe the words so that your personal meaning is less universal or spiritual. Or, learn that the spiritual has soemthing to offer you too.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 12-14-2002, 11:15 AM   #32
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Quote:
But I'd never call it a religion, though I think they can mesh very well together if you want them to.
At the risk of scaring away the original poster (who seems to have made up their own mind already):

My thinking about AiKiDo, spirituality and religion changed one day when I had the following thought. Let's pretend that I scrupulously followed Jewish religious law. I kept kosher, kept the sabbath, went to synagogue on Saturday and laid tefillin twice a day. In fact, let's make it easier and just say that I go to synagogue every Saturday and participate in the service. However, in this hypothetical, I don't believe in 'God' (whatever that means), I just get something of spirituality and connection from the whole thing or maybe I just like the people.

I may be justified in saying that I'm not religious, but I would be foolish to ignore the fact that I'm actively engaged in religious practice. As far as AiKiDo goes, I recognize that I spend some 8 to 12 hours a week actively engaged in what is really a religious practice. My own feelings about it aside, it seems right to keep this in mind.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 12-14-2002, 01:16 PM   #33
siwilson
Dojo: Kenshinkai Yoshinkan Aikido
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Hope this makes some sense:

http://www.shudokan.org.uk/about/ki/index.htm

Osu!
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Old 12-14-2002, 02:07 PM   #34
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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Please don't quote me ...

Really, don't quote me. I am but the mouse that roared.

Most of the time I am butting my head with the voices of experience who get irate because I haven't been training for upteen years, and stay strickly within the measured doctrines of Aikido. Every so often, I do refer to things hinted at by people who have been there and done that, and they have left crumbs for me to follow,just as I do to you.

So, come on guys and girls, take stock of the special times when you are ...

In the groove...

Can do no wrong ...

Having the best day or practice of your life ...

Able to see what is happening three of more moves ahead while being here and now ...

Tapping into that second wind that seems to be twice as strong as your normal first wind ...

These are all ways that begin to tap into the edges of Ki/chi power.

Everyone has had some type of moment when they were stronger than usual, able to think clearer than usual, and most of us blow it off as readily as giving a dollar to a bum on the street.

Don't blow it off, find out why it works so well, or at least catalogue it in your mind for a later reference.

Listen to what people tell you, but find the practical applications for this power of ki you seek.

It may not even touch upon any religious context, ever. Then again, you might plant a seed that cracks your perception of what you though was religion, and open up to the practicallity of why we need it to balance our mind and spiritual well being in some shape or form.

On two levels of physical practice, and spiritual well being, the mind and body must be clear of most turmoil to work together to find this magic we call ki.

Only, it ain't nothing but a coming to grips with your problems thing.

So, get a grip.

Work out the problems in your mind that hinder your practice, or at least the ability to connect body and mind. For some people it is a distraction that allows this connection, for others it is no distraction that allows it to happen.

If you read all the writings of O'Sensei you will either get it, or your head will explode!

Just Kidding ... no exploding head, headache maybe.

Get a small sample of how efficiently less works more, and that is the road to finding the mystical ki.

No Kidding. No special religion. No confusing demands of practicing five days a week.

About practicing five days a week, if you are truly cognizant of what you are learning in Aikido, three days a week, with three or four seminars a year is more than enough practice, at least it is for me.... But that is another can of worms.
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Old 12-14-2002, 06:32 PM   #35
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Bruce, a lot of your posts are difficult to follow, but this one left me completely befuddled. I don't know who you are responding to or how what you are saying relates to any of the threads within this thread. Probably my own oafishness Not that it matters much, of course.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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