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Old 12-20-2016, 01:03 PM   #26
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

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Conan Theobald wrote: View Post
Perhaps he meant something like the Axis of Action?
As far as I understand it - and think to have experienced it - these concepts are different.
Isn't Christian trying to "unite" the axis of tori and the axis of action to be able to move the axis of uke - who can't manipulate the axis of action anymore since tori has "united" with it?
Or more simple - like Bodo describes it in his book: tori is becoming the center of the movement of both partners.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:00 PM   #27
RonRagusa
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
But when practicing kata - which we do most of the time - it feels more like creating the form from what circumstances ever. The more advanced the more tori will be able to bring a certain form to live not depending on ukes behaviour.
What you seem to be saying is that uke, at least when training with an advanced nage, is pretty much just a backdrop upon which nage creates the form of the kata being practiced. Sort of like Newton's idea that space is just a backdrop upon which the events of the universe are played out over time.

The way I've been looking at it of late revolves around the idea that the form is created by both uke and nage moving in conjunction with one another. Aikido happens when uke and nage come together in diametric opposition and create the form of a technique. You can look at it as the emergence of a harmonious form from the interaction of two people possessing conflicting intents.

This type of practice is applicable to both kata and randori.

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
The form is preexisting, i.e. it exists Independent of the interaction between uke an nage. And so it can be created anyway...

...Being able to controll the person is required for being able to controll the interaction.
So learning to controll the person of uke is the main part of senseis technical teaching. He even has developed a canon of certain exercises to teach exactly that.

Umh ... uke is not thrown by guiding him along a way that makes him eventually fall. But is made to collapse by breaking his ballance inside of his body.
Endō sensei calls it sometimes "emptying his ki" or "letting his mind go blank". Actually you disturb the structure of his body in a way that he can't reorganize himself.
Christian Tissier in former times called it to make oneself the center of uke.
I agree that we disagree here. And I don't mean that in a right/wrong context; only that I experience Aikido quite differently from what you're describing. I agree with O Sensei that there are "many paths to the top of Mt. Fuji". And I appreciate that you've taken the time to elucidate your approach. Metaphorical differences aside, I think what I'm doing and working towards is more akin to what I see in Endo's Aikido than what I see in Tissier's Aikido.

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
If experienced enough we do show openings or failure to our partner by countering his technique.
But our practice is not about fightingh back and forth. It's more a spirit of "ikken hissatsu". So if uke is able to counter, he will not "attack further"and give more pressure or whatever, but will simply bring tori to the ground.
We called it a change of roles: uke is becoming tori then and now it's on him to finish with one "strike".
When I exploit nage's vulnerability (rarely, and only with advanced students in kata practice) via the dynamic pressure of a continued attack it's for nage's benefit. The added pressure is designed to push nage slightly beyond his or her mind/body comfort zone in order to strengthen mind/body coordination. We also have a grappling exercise where there are no fixed roles and both participants are constantly shifting back and forth as they each look for a throw to emerge.

Ron

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Old 12-21-2016, 11:34 AM   #28
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

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I think what I'm doing and working towards is more akin to what I see in Endo's Aikido than what I see in Tissier's Aikido.
Tissier's teaching is very methodical. The Kata itself is broken up into "static" and "dynamic" versions.

When static, Uke is a relaxed mannequin. Articulation, balance, lines and angles can be isolated.
When dynamic, Uke responds in a martially aware manner, moving to keep up with Tori with the idea of eventually trying to overtake.

In the static cases, he emphasises that neither Tori nor Uke should move in ways that cannot be reproduced "in action" (ie; at full speed.) In other words, respect the speed you work at -- if you practice slowly, slow your reactions also. Because of this it should eventually be natural to switch between both static and dynamic practice as the movement stops and starts, and this can be seen in the video at the top of the thread in the "pauses".

Following on from Carsten's point, at a certain level having Uke "follow for the sake of it" is discouraged in favour of them looking to either show or exploit openings in the manner of Kaishi waza, so long as the movement does not open themselves up also. I think Tissier's "equalising" exercise is how he introduces and later builds on this idea. (Please note I'm not saying that you endorse "for the sake of it" following, but following without purpose is an easy habit to get into in Aikido.)

Based on this, I think that Endo tends to work mostly in what Tissier would call the "dynamic" mode, which is of course much more interesting to higher level practitioners.
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Old 12-21-2016, 05:25 PM   #29
RonRagusa
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Or more simple - like Bodo describes it in his book: tori is becoming the center of the movement of both partners.
That's somewhat analogous to what I refer to as nage occupying the common center between uke and nage. Find it, feel it, occupy it, control it. Once you do that it's no longer necessary to physically make uke do anything. It's the point of safety ("Vanquish your foes by always keeping yourself in a safe and unassailable position" - O Sensei) for nage. For uke to continue attacking it's necessary for him to seek nage out; who, if he's properly controlling the common center will no longer be there. The actual throw happens when nage takes uke's balance as uke moves into the void created by nage.

Meh, it's easier to demonstrate it than describe it.

Ron

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Old 12-21-2016, 05:37 PM   #30
RonRagusa
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

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Conan Theobald wrote: View Post
Following on from Carsten's point, at a certain level having Uke "follow for the sake of it" is discouraged in favour of them looking to either show or exploit openings in the manner of Kaishi waza, so long as the movement does not open themselves up also. I think Tissier's "equalising" exercise is how he introduces and later builds on this idea. (Please note I'm not saying that you endorse "for the sake of it" following, but following without purpose is an easy habit to get into in Aikido.)
In the context we are using it, employing the word "following" is a misnomer. The purpose of "following" is as you noted above; "to either show or exploit openings...", or as we like to say, continuing the attack. Note that it's a form of practice, an exercise primarily for uke, that serves multiple purposes. It's not meant to replace existing forms of training but makes a nice addition to them.

Ron

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Old 12-22-2016, 10:53 AM   #31
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post

Meh, it's easier to demonstrate it than describe it.

Ron
Perhaps one of the videos on your site ( https://www.facebook.com/pg/berkshir...=page_internal ) demonstrates this approach?

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Old 12-27-2016, 02:17 PM   #32
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
... The actual throw happens when nage takes uke's balance as uke moves into the void created by nage.
Although these things are indeed hard to describe your words tell me, that there seems to be a fundamental difference between the way you make a throw happen and the way I learn it from Endō sensei and from Christian Tissier.

We don't create a void into which uke is moving and thus falling. We don't work with the space between and around tori and uke.
But we work with the body structure of uke. A bodily connection, called "atari", is established between tori and uke. And via atari we manipulate uke's body structure and disturb it to create kuzushi.
Although it is an exaggeration this way of throwing works without tori moving his feet at all.
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