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Old 08-12-2011, 03:07 PM   #26
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: Riots in England.

Hi all.
It's Friday evening and all the rioting stopped a couple of nights ago.

It's been very surreal and in fact interesting. People are now lined up in courts and nearly all are getting custodial sentences.

The points I'd like to make which are unusual are as follows:

1) Many of those arrested were girls, a much higher proportion than I can remember for any other disturbances except anti-nuclear.

2) So many people involved are sorry and actually seem confused at how they got swept up in it all. There were all kinds of people you wouldn't think would be there, the latest being an ambassador for the olympics, ( a girl who has awards for community works etc)

3) My son tells me the latest communications going on on facebook etc. between all the youths.
a) First there are loads of football supporters all saying how they are ready to protect their areas and put any out of order youths back 'into order'
b) Then the mood having changed there are youths now taunting youths from other areas saying if you come to rob our shops you'll have us to deal with.

4) Meanwhile, different groups of people were already getting together on the third night and fighting back. There were 70 mixed Turkish and English in north london who protected their restaurants and fought off 200 rioters.

Then there was Southall, a very asian area of west London near Ealing. They had some trouble the first night and then got together and formed a community steward group. What was good about that was that the muslim, sikh and hindu leaders got together and worked as one.

5) All over the mood has changed. It's like it took 4 days before the adult population woke up and then things changed. I think someone spiked our tea!

Now we'll all listen to the old waffling from politicians, as usual totally oblivious to reality. Luckily it's the people who are really changing things. Meanwhile the police and politicians are bickering as to who should take credit for stopping them.

Back to the same ol same ol. I think I'll make all politicians do Aikido with emphasis on responsibility.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-12-2011, 03:22 PM   #27
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Riots in England.

Quote:
Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
You forgot the Rodney King riots.
There were places where they were bad but it was nothing close to '68 in terms of how wide spread and how severe they were (with a few local exceptions) There were a number of cities in which they quelled the potential riots right from the start with massive application of pepper spray. But OC spray wasn't legal in some states like California and tear gas just didn't cut it. Things got way out of control.

But things were crazier in '68... you had folks who still believed in the "Revolution". You had Viet Nam trained guys actively sniping at the cops and firemen who showed up to fight the fires, there were whole sections of cities like Detroit and Newark (where I worked, that looked like the London Blitz. Whole blocks burned out and not rebuilt for twenty years or more.

You literally had machine guns and barbed wire on the Capitol building steps in DC, armored personnel carriers in the streets... It was something. We have the potential for that again but I think it will be more like London for us next time. It won't be as overtly political as '68 was... Although in a few cities the gang problem is so severe that it could get crazy since they are in some ways better armed than the cops... LA would be a bad place in the next riots...

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 08-12-2011, 04:47 PM   #28
graham christian
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Re: Riots in England.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'm guessing that that poster dates from WWII, Graham, and that it was intended as a joke (although not in the best of taste, perhaps). Whatever one's feelings about gun ownership and use of firearms, there's nothing remotely amusing about people's homes, businesses and workplaces being burned.
O.K. Thanks for that. I thought I was on his ignore list anyway.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-12-2011, 04:49 PM   #29
graham christian
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Re: Riots in England.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Watching I can't help but think of "Lord of the Flies".
It was quite like that actually.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-12-2011, 06:25 PM   #30
Janet Rosen
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Re: Riots in England.

Graham thank you for the latest update. It is heartening that once again as we often see in various disaster situations enough folks will join together, organize just as much as they need to, and stand to make a difference.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 08-12-2011, 09:40 PM   #31
Walter Martindale
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Re: Riots in England.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Your point is???
I'd make the point that the UK is a very strange place - considering the appeal for guns for defending the homeland back in the 40s. Now, if you find a gun that's been dumped over your fence, take it to the police and turn it in, and it's not registered to your license (if you have a license) you get an automatic 5 years in the slammer. That happened to a retired soldier recently. Another instance was a granny turning in her late husband's Webley (unregistered, unreported, banned after Dunblane) and getting sent to the pen for 5 years. Cops are given no discretion in charging, and the courts have no discretion in sentencing.

Way back when, men in POM land were expected to arm themselves... Remember all the old Sherlock Holmes movies "Watson, do you have your revolver?"

Now if you confront someone who's attacking you, (in Canada, too) you have to defend yourself by running away or by using only sufficient force to minimize harm to the attacker and stop the attack... If you commit self defense that's a little too vigorous, you get per... sorry - prosecuted for harming the guy who attacked you when you interrupted his burgling your house/shop/car.....
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Old 08-12-2011, 10:36 PM   #32
dps
 
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Re: Riots in England.

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post

Now if you confront someone who's attacking you, (in Canada, too) you have to defend yourself by running away or by using only sufficient force to minimize harm to the attacker and stop the attack... If you commit self defense that's a little too vigorous, you get per... sorry - prosecuted for harming the guy who attacked you when you interrupted his burgling your house/shop/car.....
Well yes, you show your assailant love and compassion, do him/her no harm because you would not want to alienate them.


Do no harm.

Isn't this the basic philosophical principle of "The Art To Peace"?

dps

Last edited by dps : 08-12-2011 at 10:40 PM.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 08-13-2011, 06:35 AM   #33
David Maidment
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Re: Riots in England.

One nice story I heard from a guy I work with who lives in Birmingham is that apparently all of the Coventry City fans and Aston Villa fans were banding together. I know almost nothing about football and its politics, but even I know that that's pretty amazing.

Largely the media have over-reported the Hell out of this. A few major English cities experienced terrible riots, but if you want to look at it percentage-wise, almost all of England experienced no trouble whatsoever. That doesn't make things any better for the people who were hurt, killed or lost their businesses, of course, but it's still worth considering.

What annoys me most is all the excuses that people are coming out with. They're blaming the parents or 'broken society' or any number of things. Every time something bad happens, the same fingers get pointed at the same 'problems'. And yet, no one seems to realise that they're just blaming the catalysts. Ultimately, Humans are animals (or evolved from animals, if you wish to put the species on an undeserved pedestal) with basic selfish directives to ensure survival. In 'civilised' society, we tacitly agree to behave due to a self-supporting framework of rules that we call 'morals' and we tut and call our repressed animal side 'evil'. And every time those morals disappear or collapse for whatever reason, we just revert back to how we truly are as a species. And that's the problem; that, ultimately, this is just human nature, no matter how much we try to fool and control ourselves with our morals -- as animals humans still have the need to be 'evil' for survival. This isn't something that we've evolved out of yet.

I believe it was put best when it was said that society is only three meals away from revolution.

"Never escalate a battle unless forced to do so by your enemy" - Zordon
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Old 08-13-2011, 10:19 AM   #34
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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England
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Re: Riots in England.

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
I'd make the point that the UK is a very strange place - considering the appeal for guns for defending the homeland back in the 40s. Now, if you find a gun that's been dumped over your fence, take it to the police and turn it in, and it's not registered to your license (if you have a license) you get an automatic 5 years in the slammer. That happened to a retired soldier recently. Another instance was a granny turning in her late husband's Webley (unregistered, unreported, banned after Dunblane) and getting sent to the pen for 5 years. Cops are given no discretion in charging, and the courts have no discretion in sentencing.

Way back when, men in POM land were expected to arm themselves... Remember all the old Sherlock Holmes movies "Watson, do you have your revolver?"

Now if you confront someone who's attacking you, (in Canada, too) you have to defend yourself by running away or by using only sufficient force to minimize harm to the attacker and stop the attack... If you commit self defense that's a little too vigorous, you get per... sorry - prosecuted for harming the guy who attacked you when you interrupted his burgling your house/shop/car.....
Obviously you like guns Walter. Those instances given need to be balanced with times that's not true of which there are many more but of course the mad ones make the news.

Just yesterday a man chased off three raiders in his shop by smacking them with a cricket bat. No arrest, no prosecution, everyone patting him on the back. But I suppose the good stories don't get much reaction from the loud noisy people with an axe to grind.

The extremes on both sides of the coin are of course crazy.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-18-2011, 02:16 PM   #35
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
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Re: Riots in England.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
2) So many people involved are sorry and actually seem confused at how they got swept up in it all. There were all kinds of people you wouldn't think would be there, the latest being an ambassador for the olympics, ( a girl who has awards for community works etc)
Mob psychology: get into a large group with emotions running high, and critical thought goes out the window. It was great when we were troops of primates fighting off leopards; not so beneficial in a city.
I've felt the joy and strength that comes from uniting with a group in a single purpose (in crew races, for my case); I don't know if I, personally, could resist the drive to move as one with people I see as my cohorts in that kind of situation. I'd like to think that I could, but I don't know.
It's why inciting a mob is a crime, most places.
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