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Old 01-12-2011, 06:47 PM   #26
Marc Abrams
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Re: Tucson

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I never said a word about anti-psychotic medication. I simply said indicated that Loughner being on the street was due in some part to a trend that started in the Kennedy administration. So many intellectually handicapped/unstable homeless people in large cities are also partly due to the trend. I.e., there's pro's and there's con's.

I think the sudden worries about "rhetoric" (i.e., "fingerpointing as a way to take advantage of an unfortunate situation") were fairly shallow and a poll released today indicates an large majority of people think the same way, so we're back to a bad situation.
If by "talking sensibly" you're referring to people who agree with your opinion, you may be right that the country is not ready.

Mike "If I Agreed With You, We'd Both Be Wrong" Sigman
Mike:

Pray-tell, why did that trend start during the Kennedy administration. If you can come up with some cogent explanation beyond the availability of anti-psychotic medication by all means do so. The trend was in regards to letting institutionalized people out of facilities. How is that related to this gentleman?

The worries over the political rhetoric started way before this incident. This incident just highlights the obvious. As a matter of fact, the injured congresswoman expressed her concerns about violent rhetoric during her campaign. Taking advantage of the situation is wrong. It is a lesser wrong to disavowing any responsibility for negative consequences for what people in positions of influence say.

You are 100% wrong about your statement equating talking sensibly with agreeing with my position. You do not even know my position regarding firearms, so how is it that you can assume that either you or I could be wrong?

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:05 PM   #27
Mike Sigman
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Re: Tucson

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Mike:

Pray-tell, why did that trend start during the Kennedy administration. If you can come up with some cogent explanation beyond the availability of anti-psychotic medication by all means do so.
Same quote from previously, Marc. It was something that the Kennedy family thought was "the right thing to do":

Quote:
During the Kennedy Administration beginning in 1961, the Community Mental Health Act was passed, partly due to the President's personal beliefs and experiences with loved ones challenged by mental illness. The belief that "out of sight - out of mind" was the best approach gradually changed to the belief that like physical illness, mental illness can be effectively treated, often on an outpatient basis.
Kennedy had a sister, IIRC, with a mental disability. It was a pet cause for Kennedy.
Quote:
How is that related to this gentleman?
As many encounters as Loughner had in which mental-stability was an issue, he'd perhaps have been committed in previous times.
Quote:
The worries over the political rhetoric started way before this incident. This incident just highlights the obvious. As a matter of fact, the injured congresswoman expressed her concerns about violent rhetoric during her campaign. Taking advantage of the situation is wrong. It is a lesser wrong to disavowing any responsibility for negative consequences for what people in positions of influence say.
This incident only highlights the "rhetoric" from some in the MSM attempting to capitalize on a story and getting it wrong. There is nothing persuasive (unless one is persuaded by one's own opinion) in the facts that rhetoric had anything to do with it. I don't know if you caught an interview with one of his friends today (I saw a post of the interview), but here's the comment:

He did not watch TV. He disliked the news. He didn't listen to political radio. He didn't take sides. He wasn't on the left. He wasn't on the right.

Assuming the comment is accurate, it throws the current political discourse out of the discussion.
Quote:

You are 100% wrong about your statement equating talking sensibly with agreeing with my position. You do not even know my position regarding firearms, so how is it that you can assume that either you or I could be wrong?
That was tongue-in-cheek, Marc. However, read your own sentence. There is plenty of dialogue about gun ownership; you chose to indicate that it is not sensible dialogue yet. In some ways I agree with you, but I'm also honest enough to note that my view of correct gun-ownership laws would be that I own guns and no one else does.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:20 AM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: Tucson

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Kennedy had a sister, IIRC, with a mental disability. It was a pet cause for Kennedy.
Hmmm... I knew that bringing the mentally disabled out of the dark was a pet cause for the Kennedy's, but I'd forgotten (or never knew) the details about the sister.

http://news.scotsman.com/johnfkenned...-60.2593460.jp

M.
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Old 01-13-2011, 11:44 AM   #29
C. David Henderson
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Re: Tucson

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm not advocating anything, David. If anything I'm commenting along the general lines of "how did this happen" (whether it was "rhetoric" or mental instability or what). If the plausible main fault is mental instability, a further question is about how we got to the situation where so many borderline mentally aberrant people are free in society. My comment is that this seemingly positive move started during the Kennedy administration. Often there are unexpected consequences from seemingly beneficial and caring choices. California going down the tubes would be a good example of that, as would the decline of so many major metropolitan areas (been to Detroit lately?). Regardless of the tangents, I think we're still basically discussing the tragedy in Tucson and what really happened there.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Hi Mike,

Fair enough, thanks for responding.

To me, though, this was not so much a case of unintended consequences as one of an unfullfilled commitment.

I agree with Marc that "The tragedy in Tuscon has shined a light into an area that few people really want to have to look at for long. It is too easy to walk past the 'wacko's' on the side of our streets. It is still too difficult for many people to acknowledge that they or their loved-ones have serious, mental disorders."

BTW, in terms of causes, it appears you, Obama, Palin, and I have significant areas of agreement. End of days, you think?

David Henderson
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:45 PM   #30
Mike Sigman
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Re: Tucson

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Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
I agree with Marc that "The tragedy in Tuscon has shined a light into an area that few people really want to have to look at for long. It is too easy to walk past the 'wacko's' on the side of our streets. It is still too difficult for many people to acknowledge that they or their loved-ones have serious, mental disorders."
Real life is seamier than most people want to confront, I think. You can't dream it away, but many people will listen to all sorts of promises geared at promising to hide real life. Both sides. Sounds good letting people with mental problems run free; sometimes there are unexpectedly bad consequences, though.
Quote:
BTW, in terms of causes, it appears you, Obama, Palin, and I have significant areas of agreement. End of days, you think?
Sounds intriguingly improbable to me, David. Palin I never listen to (although I'm fascinated by the Left's fixation on her), so I have no idea if we agree on anything. Obama's only cause I've been able to discern is Obama. And you're a lawyer. If I'm agreeing with that crew, it is indeed the End of Days. OK, I'll bite... where do Barry, Sarah, David, and Mike agree? Sounds like a riddle.

M.
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:57 PM   #31
C. David Henderson
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Re: Tucson

That Sarah didn't make Jared do it.

David Henderson
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:08 PM   #32
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Tucson

Quote:
If the plausible main fault is mental instability, a further question is about how we got to the situation where so many borderline mentally aberrant people are free in society
Well on one hand we have data (as I recall being told by Psychiatrists and Psychologists) which suggests integration with mainstream populations have a normalizing effect on many who fall outside of normal ranges. We also have (per the same people) a system that is overburdened. So since the default (generally) isn't to lock up people with mental issues until they've committed a serious crime, they rarely get the treatment they need, and those who are in the system often fall through the cracks anyway.
Personally i believe a huge portion of "corrections" funds (and other efforts) should be diverted toward the systems for treating mental health issues. Jail/prison seems largely to be a kind of college for criminals and do very little to address the mental issues many of them have.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-13-2011 at 01:10 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:49 PM   #33
C. David Henderson
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Re: Tucson

Support for Mary's general view about the influence of rhetoric from the psychiatrist who wrote "Listening to Prozac," also published on Salon (which also published the earlier interview I referenced and linked.)

http://www.salon.com/news/jared_loug...with_paranoids

FWIW

David Henderson
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:09 PM   #34
Mike Sigman
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Re: Tucson

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
Support for Mary's general view about the influence of rhetoric from the psychiatrist who wrote "Listening to Prozac," also published on Salon (which also published the earlier interview I referenced and linked.)

http://www.salon.com/news/jared_loug...with_paranoids

FWIW
Given the quote just yesterday from one of Loughner's friends that Loughner apparently didn't watch the news and politics, I suspect the article at Salon is probably not too relevant. Even Obama apparently read the polls that the selling of "rhetoric" is a non-starter nationally. Only the dedicated Far Left believe it.

Weird how I seem to have missed out on the Prozac generation. I've never used it and none of my friends (that I know of) did, so all the discussions about Prozac over the years never made an impression on me. I guess it was a big deal for some people, but it passed me by.

Mike
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:20 PM   #35
C. David Henderson
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Re: Tucson

Yeah, I don't think this guy is trying to make a specific link in this case; what I meant was the relevance of these factors to behavior more generally.

I think the SSRI drugs are a mixed bag. I had a teenage client with whom they heightened risk taking behavior. I know other folks whom they helped.

I suspect too often these medicines are perscribed by a family doctor without any other form of therapy.

David Henderson
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:45 PM   #36
Marc Abrams
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Re: Tucson

The gun aspect of this tragedy is addressed in this op-ed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/13/op...R_AP_LO_MST_FB

I agree with the concept of better regulations and exploring this issue from a public health perspective. I do not necessarily agree with all his suggestions but it is a good start none-the-less.

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-13-2011, 08:30 PM   #37
Rob Watson
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Re: Tucson

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/28/us...n-hostage.html

We've had our share in these parts. Mr. Dashti had numerous run ins with the law before the 'big one'.

How many hundreds of 'odd folks' have I seen on the streets of Berkeley/S.F. and wondered 'how dangerous' and wondering when they were going to snap ... most turned out to be harmless to all but themselves (I only mention this population since many are clearly 'unbalanced' and they are out in front of everyone). My friend turned the gun on himself - we all knew he would eventually snap. We didn't know who to turn to and we didn't want the guys in white with nets to haul him away. In the end he went off his meds and things quickly got out of hand.

I wonder even if someone could tell the dangerous ones from the just pitiable are they actually out there looking?

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 01-14-2011, 07:25 AM   #38
SeiserL
 
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Re: Tucson

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
I wonder even if someone could tell the dangerous ones from the just pitiable are they actually out there looking?
Please remember that in a country that supports freedom of speech/expression, innocence until proven guilty (and that is after the fact), and protecting the rights of the soon to be offender/perpetrator/predator over the rights of the soon to be damaged or dead victims, there is not a lot that detection and suspicion can do.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:50 AM   #39
C. David Henderson
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Re: Tucson

FWIW,

Under AZ law, Pima Comm College could have initiated a psych evaluation on this person based on his clear pattern of aberrant behavior. The College instead saw itself as protecting its students and faculty from harm by kicking him out.

Hindsight is 20/20. But in my view, while detection and suspicion untied to any public health structure may be of little value beyond situational self-defense, here there were structures in place, underfunded though they seem to have been, that could have made a difference and prevented this becoming a problem for the criminal justice system, with all its warts, to clean up.

Respectfully,

David Henderson
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:30 PM   #40
Rob Watson
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Re: Tucson

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Please remember that in a country that supports freedom of speech/expression, innocence until proven guilty (and that is after the fact), and protecting the rights of the soon to be offender/perpetrator/predator over the rights of the soon to be damaged or dead victims, there is not a lot that detection and suspicion can do.
"We the people" notwithstanding friends and neighbohrs are not agents of the state and have a bit more latitude for action. It behooves one to consider just what can be done when we see that someone we know is bound for trouble.

I'm confused by the many instances in which a clearly disturbed individual 'snaps' and the result is more stringent gun control when what is called for is more mental health services. As a medical problem in which prevention is king how to square that with the preservation of liberty? Maybe what we have now is working just fine and there are always a few that fall through the cracks. I always presume there has to be a better way ... I'm not up to the task.

Hindsight is just too depressing so I try to always look forward.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:13 PM   #41
SeiserL
 
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Re: Tucson

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Hindsight is just too depressing so I try to always look forward.
Yes agreed.
Most people are too busy pointing fingers at the past rather than learning from it and making a better future.
Compliments and appreciation.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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