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Old 02-08-2010, 02:57 PM   #26
dps
 
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

"1. Ye have locked yerselves up in cages of fear--and, behold, do ye now complain that ye lack FREEDOM!

2. Ye have cast out yer brothers for devils and now complain ye, lamenting that ye've been left to fight alone.

3. All Chaos was once yer kingdom; verily, held ye dominion over the entire Pentaverse, but today ye was sore afraid in dark corners, nooks, and sink holes.

4. O how the darknesses do crowd up, one against the other, in ye hearts! What fear ye more that what ye have wroughten?

5. Verily, verily I say unto you, not all the Sinister Ministers of the Bavarian Illuminati, working together in multitudes, could so entwine the land with tribulation as have yer baseless warnings."

Chapter 1, THE EPISTLE TO THE PARANOIDS

--Lord Omar

David
 
Old 02-08-2010, 08:22 PM   #27
David Orange
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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I had a long talk with an old friend the other day and as I was leaving I said, "Sorry we didn't get to go into the current political situation" because he is very astute and subtle in his understandings of these things. He shrugged and shook his head and said, "It stinks."
This guy was born in Germany about 1953. His mother had come through the war. His grandfather knew everything that had happened. He saw Hitler when Hitler was nothing more than Sarah Palin is now. But Hitler was already thinking that declaring war on people would be good for his electoral power.

We talked about all that stuff and I asked him about the death camp at Dachau.

"No," he said. "Dachau was not a death camp. It was a labor camp. The death camps were outside Germany. Even the labor camps were far from people's sight so ordinary Germans didn't know what was happening. But if you were a union member or some kind of radical who spoke out too much against the government, they would send you to Dachau and work your ass off for a couple of years. Then they would ask if you were going to be good and if you agreed, they'd let you go back to your business. But if not, you were dead."

He told me about the Potemkin Villages--normal German villages that they emptied of residents and repopulated with Jews in armbands. They photographed these people "living ordinary lives among one another" and told the Germans that these Jews were happy to be "with their own kind," but in fact, of course, the Jews were sent to Treblinka and Auschwitz. Secret prisons? Torture?

It's all too similar to the past eight years.

No, what "we" did didn't rise to the level of what the Nazis did, but we still had some strength in our political and justice systems as far as 2008, so the Bush/Cheney movement was not allowed to go so far. But in spirit, they were no different. If they had had less restraints to hold them back, God only knows what they were willing to do.

When the rabble rousers went to Town Hall meetings with their guns and shouted down non-Bushies who tried to speak, my German friend said, "They're Brown Shirts."

He knows. He's a true realist. He can't stand Palin or her ilk. And if you're a good American, you should fear those people--their ignorance and their pride in their own ignorance--because they are heavily armed and they've been hating a lot of people for decades now.

When I say "We need a revolution," I mean at the ballot box, as when Obama was elected, but also to be followed up with a committed Congress that really moves to achieve things. The democratic congress of the past year has squandered their super majority and achieved less with that than Republicans could with a simple majority: because the Republicans all have the same ambitions, where Democrats are all over the place. The Republicans think only of supporting the corporations and cutting down labor and unions, the poor and all non-whites. It's very easy for them to agree on an agenda. The Democrats fail to take the common good as a common issue because they're so divided into so many interest groups that even with a super majority, they can't stand up to an tiny, impotent minority of defeated right-wingers.

They'd better learn and get some things done soon or the fickle public will again vote their own worst enemies into power.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-08-2010, 08:24 PM   #28
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
.....
Putting you on ignore is one of the best decisions I've made in a while.

Sincerely.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-09-2010, 12:54 AM   #29
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Yes, we could use more energy applied to world hunger and universal health care.

What is Sarah decided to bomb Hungary in her bid for re-election?
I cant agree more about the issue concerning hunger, housing, etc.
[I won't even get into my thoughts concerning those issues, aside to say that I believe its an issue that can be fixed - albeit doing so may ruin current business models...]

As for Sarah, you mean to tell me she knows Hungary exist???

Peace

dAlen

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Old 02-09-2010, 06:01 AM   #30
David Orange
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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As for Sarah, you mean to tell me she knows Hungary exist???
Whoever heard of "Grenada" before Reagan invaded it to make himself look like a "warrior"?

If she needs a vote and someone shows her a map and says "These folks hate America," you'd better cover your head.

Careful out there.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-09-2010, 10:02 AM   #31
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

The great irony of the tea party and the rest of the ultra -conservative groups through the ages, is that the members are seemingly unaware of the basis for the nation they so profusely and profanely wish to protect.

The are also seemingly unaware that it was British Conservatives, against who the newly independant and liberal USA forces defeated in battle to forge the furtherance of Liberal Values and Progressive Change, which were the enemy of freedom.

The United States of America was formulated and founded by Liberals utilizing Liberal ideas. The United States of America has always stood for Liberal Values...at least in theory.

This latest gathering of conservative minded hategroups masquerading as concerned Americans, the Tea Party people, is nothing more and nothing less than an act of domestic terrorism.

It is time for the citizens of the United States of America to either stand up for what this nation has always stood for - again, at least in theory - and in doing so eject these traitorous conservatives from our land, or join the traitors and move to Austria or Somalia or some other ethnocentric and warlord run haven.

America is a Liberal Nation. Period. And it has always been up to the Liberal American Citizenry to win and maintain the freedoms we all enjoy today.

The rights of women to vote. The rights of workers to organize so as to escape the tyranny of corporate bosses backed by govt. guns. The rights of people of all skin colors to have equal protection under the law. The list goes on and on. And guess what? Not one of these basic freedoms was won for Americans by going abroad and killing people. They were all won by Civil Rights Activists defeating the conservative agendas put forth by various conservatives in govt. office at the time.

Remember fellow Americans...we must stay vigilant against all attacks. Especially those from within which are as insidious and dishonorable and demented as hijacking planes and flying them into buildings while thinking some god is on your side.
 
Old 02-09-2010, 10:53 AM   #32
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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Remember fellow Americans...we must stay vigilant against all attacks. Especially those from within which are as insidious and dishonorable and demented as hijacking planes and flying them into buildings while thinking some god is on your side.
Ever since Reagan and Falwell, American Christianity has taken a marked turn in the direction of Islam. The Christian Coalition had more in common with Mohammed's conversion of Arabia at the sword than it did with the message of Christ, which was liberty.

Jesus was a LIBERAL, through and through.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-09-2010, 11:37 AM   #33
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

You are not going to stop them.
They will come and go just as Obama is.

Let go of your paranoia.

David
 
Old 02-09-2010, 11:57 AM   #34
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Ah! The joy of the IGNORE button.

I used to read every post, no matter what the drivel, no matter what kind of dimwitted drive behind it. And then I realized that some people are always going to be that way and it's best just to let them drivel on in silence!

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-09-2010, 04:09 PM   #35
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

This is a pretty interesting thread to read and I urge the hate to continue until a civil war erupts, but in the meantime let me make a note about history. The Nazis and Fascists and Communists were all branches of socialist groups, not conservative groups. Nazi is a contraction from the name "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" (National Socialist German Workers Party) and the Nazis referred to themselves as Nationalsozialisten (National Socialists). The were into organic foods, the "right thing to do" (just like U.S. Progressives), and so on.

"Fascists" took their name from the "fasces" symbol of a bundle of wheat stalks that was the sign of some labor unions (get it?) in Italy. As Roger Griffin comments: "[Fascism is] a genuinely revolutionary, trans-class form of anti-liberal, and in the last analysis, anti-conservative nationalism." Any way you look at it, it was a power grab that took over businesses and the economy/banking in the name of saving the country.

Communists' history is pretty well-known. All three of these people had a tendency to change history (sort of like the intellectuals' trend to attribute Nazisim to conservatives when it was in Germany actually selling Progressive politics in order to win over as much support from the "smart people" as possible).

Socialism was the de rigeur trend in Europe in those days and it's made a resurgence nowadays by pretending that it is not what it is or was. Note the levels of anti-Semitism that are now expanding throughout "social-democrat" Europe again. Also note that in France and England prior to WWII, socialism was very trendy as about 90% of Britain thought that England should unilaterally disarm as a way to pacify Hitler.

But carry on. A complete historical misunderstanding of the role socialism actually played shouldn't be allowed to stand in the way of True Beliefs. Not much of a job to go from here to thinking that conservatives should be sent to "labor camps", eh? They're already kept out of most teaching positions in liberal universities and law schools, jobs in Hollywood, and so on. Let's purify the nation!

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-09-2010, 05:27 PM   #36
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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Ah! The joy of the IGNORE button.

I used to read every post, no matter what the drivel, no matter what kind of dimwitted drive behind it. And then I realized that some people are always going to be that way and it's best just to let them drivel on in silence!
The Tea Party Movement is in response to the Cult of Obama movement that fooled many independents, conservative and moderate Democrats. Now a year later those that were fooled are seeing the truth about what Obama and his supporters are really about. His approval rating is tanking ( only 44%), he is not doing or reversing what he promised he would do.

The supporters of Obama are afraid and paranoid about anything they can not control that may stop the Obama administration. The Tea Party Movement is a prime example.


The ignore feature only works when you log in.
Paranoid people can not stand not knowing what is being said about them. They will eventually look.

David

Last edited by dps : 02-09-2010 at 05:32 PM.
 
Old 02-09-2010, 06:48 PM   #37
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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Dan O'Day wrote: View Post
The great irony of the tea party and the rest of the ultra -conservative groups through the ages, is that the members are seemingly unaware of the basis for the nation they so profusely and profanely wish to protect.

The are also seemingly unaware that it was British Conservatives, against who the newly independant and liberal USA forces defeated in battle to forge the furtherance of Liberal Values and Progressive Change, which were the enemy of freedom.

The United States of America was formulated and founded by Liberals utilizing Liberal ideas. The United States of America has always stood for Liberal Values...at least in theory.

This latest gathering of conservative minded hategroups masquerading as concerned Americans, the Tea Party people, is nothing more and nothing less than an act of domestic terrorism.

It is time for the citizens of the United States of America to either stand up for what this nation has always stood for - again, at least in theory - and in doing so eject these traitorous conservatives from our land, or join the traitors and move to Austria or Somalia or some other ethnocentric and warlord run haven.

America is a Liberal Nation. Period. And it has always been up to the Liberal American Citizenry to win and maintain the freedoms we all enjoy today.

The rights of women to vote. The rights of workers to organize so as to escape the tyranny of corporate bosses backed by govt. guns. The rights of people of all skin colors to have equal protection under the law. The list goes on and on. And guess what? Not one of these basic freedoms was won for Americans by going abroad and killing people. They were all won by Civil Rights Activists defeating the conservative agendas put forth by various conservatives in govt. office at the time.

Remember fellow Americans...we must stay vigilant against all attacks. Especially those from within which are as insidious and dishonorable and demented as hijacking planes and flying them into buildings while thinking some god is on your side.
I assume when you refer to the US as a liberal nation, you are referring to classical liberalism?
 
Old 02-10-2010, 01:16 AM   #38
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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The Nazis and Fascists and Communists were all branches of socialist groups, not conservative groups.Mike Sigman
Mike,

Are you serious....LOL. Names mean nothing and you know it. Just because the Nazi Party called themselves socialists doesn't make them actual socialist's. The German Democratic Republic was not in fact a republic, or democratic.

Your claim that the Nazi Party was actually socialist and not right wing is rather laughable. The Nazi Party was always associated with Italian style fascism, which sought to combine authoritarian nationalism and corporatism. Hitlers Nazi Party was unflinchingly reactionary in execution and unlike Peronian corporo/fascism, also supremacist. Consequently, political science has always considered Nazism to be on the far far right of the traditional left-right political paradigm. Hitler was very clear about his fashioning Nazism to be the polar opposite of communism. Hitlers fundamental tenet of Nazi fascism hinged on society and its institutions being motivated by nationalistic heroism rather than economics. This is unarguably far right wing stuff that contrasts significantly with the principles of capitalism and socialism.

The growing influence of corporate money and power in our electoral process leads most convincingly towards our country becoming a haven for corporatism rather than European style socialism. Just consider the recent ruling of the Supreme Court. Every citizen and small business was sold out on that day to the big corporations under the guise of free speech. What a crock! No where in the US Constitution is a business entity alluded to have rights approaching or surpassing those of the individual voter. Our founding fathers are probably rolling in their graves!

And don't even get me going on how far the GOP has fallen. From being represented by intellectual giants like Goldwater, Rockefeller and Buckley to mental midgets like Palin, Limbaugh and Beck. The Grand Ol' Party is no longer grand in intellect, but grand in stupidity. I want the old GOP back instead of these posers.

Toby Threadgill

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 02-10-2010 at 01:18 AM.
 
Old 02-10-2010, 07:36 AM   #39
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

The thesis likely comes from this book, which I believe an astonishing work of propaganda and revisionism:

Liberal Fascism, by Jonah Goldberg, which the cover jacket describes:

"In this provocative and well-researched book, Goldberg probes modern liberalism's spooky origins in early 20th-century fascist politics. With chapter titles such as Adolf Hitler: Man of the Left and Brave New Village: Hillary Clinton and the Meaning of Liberal Fascism -- Goldberg argues that fascism has always been a phenomenon of the left."

Or, as I would call it "History through the looking glass," Alice.

Last edited by C. David Henderson : 02-10-2010 at 07:39 AM.

David Henderson
 
Old 02-10-2010, 07:55 AM   #40
Mike Sigman
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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Mike,

Are you serious....LOL. Names mean nothing and you know it. Just because the Nazi Party called themselves socialists doesn't make them actual socialist's. The German Democratic Republic was not in fact a republic, or democratic.
Well, I'm not going to start off with asking if you're serious and LOL, since I think it's uncalled for, but I'd suggest that you take a closer reading of what was going on in those times in terms of political beliefs. "Socialism" was in vogue and everyone (seemingly) had their own takes on it, often warring with each other for dominance in who was the most "for the common man", etc. In the U.S., there was strong support among the self-styled intellectuals for various brands of socialism. There was support from many Americans (and Europeans) for Hitler, Mussolini, Uncle Joe Stalin, etc., until it became clearer that they were all out for power and deaths began to rise. You're completely misreading the times if you don't understand that socialism was the vogue.
Quote:
Your claim that the Nazi Party was actually socialist and not right wing is rather laughable.
Yes, well perhaps they didn't understand about socialism (look at the huge number of tracts written all over Europe about socialism at that time), but you do. You're basically quoting to me the revised history in which liberal/progressives tried to distance themselves from the negative aspects socialism after the war.
Quote:
The Nazi Party was always associated with Italian style fascism, which sought to combine authoritarian nationalism and corporatism.
What? Maybe in latter-day history the association of Nazis and Italians in terms of the Axis Powers was stressed, but Italy's scheme of things was somewhat different than Germany's. Read up sometime on the origin of the fascisti's.
Quote:
Hitlers Nazi Party was unflinchingly reactionary in execution and unlike Peronian corporo/fascism, also supremacist. Consequently, political science has always considered Nazism to be on the far far right of the traditional left-right political paradigm. Hitler was very clear about his fashioning Nazism to be the polar opposite of communism. Hitlers fundamental tenet of Nazi fascism hinged on society and its institutions being motivated by nationalistic heroism rather than economics. This is unarguably far right wing stuff that contrasts significantly with the principles of capitalism and socialism.
You've taken to heart too much of revised history from left-wing PoliSci teachers. Besides, although nationalism played a large part in those groups in those times and they all developed along different lines, my comment was about the origin of those groups.

You're trying to argue that after Nazism, Fascism, etc., developed they were something "right-wing". Pooh. They were "totalitarian" and each of their origins was from socialist-area thinking/politics.
Quote:
The growing influence of corporate money and power in our electoral process leads most convincingly towards our country becoming a haven for corporatism rather than European style socialism. Just consider the recent ruling of the Supreme Court. Every citizen and small business was sold out on that day to the big corporations under the guise of free speech. What a crock! No where in the US Constitution is a business entity alluded to have rights approaching or surpassing those of the individual voter. Our founding fathers are probably rolling in their graves!
Er.... businesses tend to give campaign donations roughly 50% Republican and 50% Democrat. Labor Unions give money and services almost exclusively to Democrats. Why doesn't your complain include labor unions? People make up "labor unions", but the leaders at the top of unions (often associated with organized crime, even today) have the power to wield the money. People make up corporations and investors and jobholders.... are you suggesting that they shouldn't be able to express themselves? It sounds like you are. BTW, being "anti-business" and "pro-common-man" was the philosophy found in the origins of Nazism, Fascism, and Communism.
Quote:

And don't even get me going on how far the GOP has fallen. From being represented by intellectual giants like Goldwater, Rockefeller and Buckley to mental midgets like Palin, Limbaugh and Beck. The Grand Ol' Party is no longer grand in intellect, but grand in stupidity. I want the old GOP back instead of these posers.
Why the constant reversion to name-calling?

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-10-2010, 08:25 AM   #41
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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The thesis likely comes from this book, which I believe an astonishing work of propaganda and revisionism:

Liberal Fascism, by Jonah Goldberg, which the cover jacket describes:

"In this provocative and well-researched book, Goldberg probes modern liberalism's spooky origins in early 20th-century fascist politics. With chapter titles such as Adolf Hitler: Man of the Left and Brave New Village: Hillary Clinton and the Meaning of Liberal Fascism -- Goldberg argues that fascism has always been a phenomenon of the left."

Or, as I would call it "History through the looking glass," Alice.
It's a good book, despite your de rigeur trivialization/demonization that no leftist can forego, but you're wrong about my thesis coming from that book. I actually studied European history in college and was astute enough to understand what one of my German-immigrant teachers was saying when he pointed out that "Socialism" is part of the Nazi name and origins. It doesn't take a great mind to see these things, but it certainly takes a large amount of denial to think that somehow "socialism" was a different word back in those days than it is now.

The left-wing has a habit of re-writing history. Note Walter Duranty (New York Times reporter in the 1930's) trying to gloss over the deaths of 5-million Ukrainians because he thought socialism/communism was "the right thing to do". Note how "Global Warming" recently became "Climate Change" when the figures too obviously didn't support the massive proclamations of rising temperatures. Note that "Bush started with a surplus and ended with a debt", when told by the Left, never even mentions the 9/11 attack and subsequent economic collapse anymore... it has disappeared from much of leftwing history. Note that the "Subprime mortgage meltdown" morphed quickly into a "blame Wall Street" history in the leftwing media once they understood that the "give bad loans to the poor who can't pay for them" was actually a Democrat Party initiative. Changing history to suit is fine, but somewhere in there you have to face the logic that an accumulation of facts has built.

Goldberg's book is pretty-well researched and sourced/annotated. If you want to quibble with him about his facts and/or interpretations, maybe you should arm yourself with more than sneers. At the moment, he's engaged and is engaging pretty much anyone who makes reasonable argument and he doesn't appear to be losing. And yes, I know that the leftwing gnashes their teeth and attempts the usual name-calling replacement for cogent argument.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-10-2010, 08:35 AM   #42
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

The Republican Party still sometimes is called the party of Lincoln, but its been ideologically co-opted since Nixon's "Southern strategy" in a way that has nothing to do with some inherent momentum attributable to its original ideals. (The last time, I believe, the GOP pushed civil rights legislation was in passing the 14th amendment and associated statutes following the civil war).

Similarly, even were it historically true -- its not -- the theory that fascism started out as "socialism" (or "syndicalism") and therefore fascism equals "socialism" is mere talismanic word play.

As history, it's important to note the transformation of the GOP; if one could find credible sources and document a similar transformation in fascism, it would also be historically interesting.

But I doubt the history really is there to see by anyone lacking an ax to grind. Certainly haven't read anything here to the contrary; merely slogans.

David Henderson
 
Old 02-10-2010, 08:37 AM   #43
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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. Why the constant reversion to name-calling?

Mike Sigman
Why indeed?

David Henderson
 
Old 02-10-2010, 08:55 AM   #44
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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The Republican Party still sometimes is called the party of Lincoln, but its been ideologically co-opted since Nixon's "Southern strategy" in a way that has nothing to do with some inherent momentum attributable to its original ideals. (The last time, I believe, the GOP pushed civil rights legislation was in passing the 14th amendment and associated statutes following the civil war).

Similarly, even were it historically true -- its not -- the theory that fascism started out as "socialism" (or "syndicalism") and therefore fascism equals "socialism" is mere talismanic word play.

As history, it's important to note the transformation of the GOP; if one could find credible sources and document a similar transformation in fascism, it would also be historically interesting.

But I doubt the history really is there to see by anyone lacking an ax to grind. Certainly haven't read anything here to the contrary; merely slogans.
I'm not going to bother with that very feeble comparison of the meaning of "Republicanism" (the word and the origin of meaning to the party) with Lincoln, etc. It doesn't make sense and besides, it's irrelevant as a comparison. The rest of your argument seems to be based on your personal assertions, so I'll leave it to you.

Factually, the origins of the Fascist Party from labor-union (quasi-socialist organization) roots is well-established. The "socialism" in the name of the Nazi Party is indisputable and it was supported by much of the initial arguments within the party philosophy; it's on record. If you simply want to argue by assertion that the record doesn't exist, I leave that to you, too.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-10-2010, 09:44 AM   #45
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

There are good reviews and bad reviews of Goldberg's work, but the bad reviews are not limited to the usual suspects. Wiki-excerpt --
Austin W. Bramwell wrote in The American Conservative:

Repeatedly, Goldberg fails to recognize a reductio ad absurdum. ... In no case does Goldberg uncover anything more ominous than a coincidence. ... In elaborating liberalism's similarities to fascism, Goldberg shows a near superstitious belief in the power of taxonomy. ... Goldberg falsely saddles liberalism not just with relativism but with all manner of alleged errors having nothing to do with liberalism. ... Not only does Goldberg misunderstand liberalism, but he refuses to see it simply as liberalism... Liberal Fascism reads less like an extended argument than as a catalogue of conservative intellectual clichés, often irrelevant to the supposed point of the book. ... Liberal Fascism completes Goldberg's transformation from chipper humorist into humorless ideologue. [23]
According to Goldberg's "taxonomy" of ideas, if the Republican Party ended up a largely regional southern party dominated by white men, then its because abolitionism, the founding impulse of the GOP, invariably led it there. How absurd, yet inescapable. And how ironically Hegelian.

If some fascists were vegetarians, and some progressives are vegetarians, it shows, to Goldberg, a connection.

As to my "Argument by assertion," this is of course one of the debating tactics for which you are well-known. That's fine. I don't mind. I believe, however, that it is your thesis and your burden to persuade the reader. Perhaps your forensic skills suffice. You've certainly introduced no facts of any record to prove anything of substance.

David Henderson
 
Old 02-10-2010, 10:08 AM   #46
C. David Henderson
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

More wiki-stuff:

Quote:
Position [of fascim] in the political spectrum

Many scholars consider fascism to be on the far right of the traditional left-right political spectrum.[7][8][9][32][10]

Benito Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism regards fascism as right-wing and collectivist, but it also declares that fascism is sympathetic to ameliorating the conditions that brought about the rise of left-wing political movements, such as class conflict socialism and liberal democracy, while simultaneously opposing the egalitarianism associated with the left.[33]

Writers on the subject have often found placing fascism on a conventional left-right political spectrum difficult.[34] There is a scholarly consensus that fascism was influenced by both the left and the right.[7] A number of historians have regarded fascism either as a revolutionary centrist doctrine, as a doctrine which mixes philosophies of the left and the right, or as both of those things.[8][9][10]

The historians Eugen Weber,[35] David Renton,[36] and Robert Soucy[37] view fascism as on the ideological right. Rod Stackelberg argues that fascism opposes egalitarianism (particularly racial) and democracy, which according to him are characteristics that make it an extreme right-wing movement.[38] Stanley Payne states that pre-war fascism found a coherent identity through alliances with right-wing movements[39] Roger Griffin argues that since the end of World War II, fascist movements have become intertwined with the radical right, describing certain groups as part of a "fascist radical right".[40][41]

Walter Laqueur says that historical fascism "did not belong to the extreme Left, yet defining it as part of the extreme Right is not very illuminating either", but that it "was always a coalition between radical, populist ('fascist') elements and others gravitating toward the extreme Right".[42] Payne says "fascists were unique in their hostility to all the main established currents, left right and center", noting that they allied with both left and right, but more often the right.[43][44] However, he contends that German Nazism was closer to Russian communism than to any other non-communist system.[45]

The position that fascism is neither right nor left is regarded as credible by a number of contemporary historians and sociologists, including Seymour Martin Lipset[46] and Roger Griffin.[47] Griffin argued, "Not only does the location of fascism within the right pose taxonomic problems, there are good ground for cutting this particular Gordian knot altogether by placing it in a category of its own "beyond left and right."[48]

On economic issues, fascists reject ideas of class conflict and internationalism, which are commonly held by Marxists and international socialists, in favour of class collaboration and statist nationalism.[49][50] However, Italian fascism also declared its objection to excessive capitalism, which it called supercapitalism.[51] Zeev Sternhell sees fascism as an anti-Marxist form of socialism.[52]

A number of fascist movements described themselves as a "third force" that was outside the traditional political spectrum altogether.[53] Mussolini promoted ambiguity about fascism's positions in order to rally as many people to it as possible, saying fascists can be "aristocrats or democrats, revolutionaries and reactionaries, proletarians and anti-proletarians, pacifists and anti-pacifists".[54] Mussolini claimed that Italian Fascism's economic system of corporatism could be identified as either state capitalism or state socialism, which in either case involved "the bureaucratisation of the economic activities of the nation."[55] Mussolini described fascism in any language he found useful.[54][56] Spanish Falangist leader José Antonio Primo de Rivera was critical of both left-wing and right-wing politics, once saying that "basically the Right stands for the maintenance of an economic structure, albeit an unjust one, while the Left stands for the attempt to subvert that economic structure, even though the subversion thereof would entail the destruction of much that was worthwhile".[57]

Roger Eatwell sees terminology associated with the traditional "left-right" political spectrum as failing to fully capture the complex nature of the ideology[58] and many other political scientists have posited multi-dimensional alternatives to the traditional linear left-right spectrum.[59] In some two dimensional political models, such as the Political Compass (where left and right are described in purely economic terms), fascism is ascribed to the economic centre, with its extremism expressing itself on the authoritarianism axis instead.[60]

David Henderson
 
Old 02-10-2010, 10:19 AM   #47
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Mike,

First of all let me say ideologically I'm closest to an old Rockefeller Republican, not a Liberal Democrat nor a Neo-Conservative. As such, today I find myself a registered independent. I believe in fiscal restraint and social liberty. In the last 30 years, and to my dismay, the Republicans have increased the National Debt 1000% and embraced regressive social policies. All one need do is observe a darling of todays Neocon movement by the name of Glenn Beck to see how far the Republican Party has fallen away from intellectually sound ideals. If you believe identifying Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin as a mental midget is name calling, so be it. I prefer to think of it as simple fact.

Now...accusing the entire political science community of revisionist history while referencing Jonah Goldberg as a source of historical and ideologically grounded insight, is like referencing Saul of Tarsus on women's rights. I could go point by point and tear Jonah a new @$$hole on many of the assertions in his lousy book, but I can't type that long a diatribe. So no, he is not winning the argument. He is just another pitiful Neocon apologist who is trying to put lipstick on the pig that is the Republican Party of the last 30 years.

And BTW, my political science teacher in college was a staunch conservative and personal friend of William F. Buckley. He taught that fascism was politically reactionary and an prime example of the extreme right wing ideology although it almost deserved its own special category divoriced from simple right/left . Sorry Mike, but I'll take the consensus of "intellectuals" like him and the worlwide political science community over the postulations of an unabashed Neocon ideologue like Jonah Goldberg any day.

I don't give credibility to ideologues from either side of the political spectrum, and neither should any American. Ideologues from both parties have an ax to grind that is conveniently divorced from the truth and facts.

Toby Threadgill

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 02-10-2010 at 10:24 AM.
 
Old 02-10-2010, 10:50 AM   #48
Aikibu
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
This is a pretty interesting thread to read and I urge the hate to continue until a civil war erupts, but in the meantime let me make a note about history. The Nazis and Fascists and Communists were all branches of socialist groups, not conservative groups. Nazi is a contraction from the name "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" (National Socialist German Workers Party) and the Nazis referred to themselves as Nationalsozialisten (National Socialists). The were into organic foods, the "right thing to do" (just like U.S. Progressives), and so on.

"Fascists" took their name from the "fasces" symbol of a bundle of wheat stalks that was the sign of some labor unions (get it?) in Italy. As Roger Griffin comments: "[Fascism is] a genuinely revolutionary, trans-class form of anti-liberal, and in the last analysis, anti-conservative nationalism." Any way you look at it, it was a power grab that took over businesses and the economy/banking in the name of saving the country.

Communists' history is pretty well-known. All three of these people had a tendency to change history (sort of like the intellectuals' trend to attribute Nazisim to conservatives when it was in Germany actually selling Progressive politics in order to win over as much support from the "smart people" as possible).

Socialism was the de rigeur trend in Europe in those days and it's made a resurgence nowadays by pretending that it is not what it is or was. Note the levels of anti-Semitism that are now expanding throughout "social-democrat" Europe again. Also note that in France and England prior to WWII, socialism was very trendy as about 90% of Britain thought that England should unilaterally disarm as a way to pacify Hitler.

But carry on. A complete historical misunderstanding of the role socialism actually played shouldn't be allowed to stand in the way of True Beliefs. Not much of a job to go from here to thinking that conservatives should be sent to "labor camps", eh? They're already kept out of most teaching positions in liberal universities and law schools, jobs in Hollywood, and so on. Let's purify the nation!

FWIW

Mike Sigman
On the contrary...History does not seem to support your version of it.

'Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power."
Benito Mussolini

"Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail."
Benito Mussolini

"Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity, quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace."
Benito Mussolini

"I think Obama would win the next election if he invaded Iran." Sarah Palin in a recent interview with Chris Wallace on Fox News

In Germany It was the Military Industrial Complex who gave Hitler his power...They backed his National Socialist Party with tons of money and they got the fat government contracts and the use of slave labor in return. IG Farben Siemans ect ect ect. German Industrialists were pissed off about having the Ruhr taken from them at the end of WW1 and it's production given to the victors for reparations....

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Joseph Goebbels...

The three biggest lies often repeated as mantra...

"I am not a crook." Richard Nixon up through Tom Delay

"Government is the Problem" Ronald Reagan up through G. W. Bush

"Greed is Good" Gorden Gecko (as played by Micheal Douglas) up through Richard Fuld

Karl Rove Lee Atwater Roger Ailes Glenn Beck Rush Limbaugh Dick Army and others have twisted the minds of some folks (who sadly were about as smart as Sarah Palin to begin with) into transposing this BS onto Obama. For 35 years I have heard the same crap...The same lies told over and over again....

Sadly it appears some folks continue to drink the kool aid with gusto.

Thomas Franks Book's "What's the Matter with Kansas." and "The Wrecking Crew" subtitled something like "How the Conservative Movement almost Destroyed Government for fun and profit" are both good reads and will help some folks understand how virulent and dangerous this 'ignorant ideology" can be.

Thank God the Younger Generation for the most part does not continue to buy into all that conservative crap...

William Hazen
 
Old 02-10-2010, 11:22 AM   #49
Fred Little
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Mike,

The relationship between Socialism and National Socialism, or more precisely, between Socialism and Nazism, is roughly the same as the relationship between "food" and "food products," which is to say between "food" and "McDonald's."

Bon appetit!

FL

 
Old 02-10-2010, 12:01 PM   #50
Mike Sigman
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
You've certainly introduced no facts of any record to prove anything of substance.
Certainly I did. I produced the fact that even the Nazi name contains the word "socialism". They knew what socialism was in those days, too. I produced the fact that "Fascism" derives from one of the common labor-union symbols and that Fascism derives from those movements. You simply ignore anything you don't want to hear.

I also have twice mentioned that I'm talking about the origins of Nazism, Fascism, and Communism and you seem intent on debating what names the ultimate product was (and there is a lot of politically-biased debate about what the terms ultimately were). If you can't acknowledge that my comments about the origins are correct and then go from there, so be it. I'm not interested in arguments that try to shift the debate.

Mike Sigman
 

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