Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-03-2009, 09:12 PM   #26
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
... and then make themselves the head honcho who by bylaws is a megadan.
-side stench pain from the laughter
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2009, 09:15 PM   #27
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
There's a difference between No Rank and Independent. I have no problem with Independent. But there are a lot pf folks out there who claim rank that is bogus... wouldn't train with them, for a variety of reasons.
I understand your point Sensei, but there are also many folks who have authentic ranking and lineage, but their technique is not at the level of their "rank".

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2009, 09:28 PM   #28
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
In any Art...Their practice is the only measure...

I have met 35 year old 10th Dans who did not last five minutes with this fat old Aikido Nidan... As for my "rank" I have been a Nidan for a very long time but that does seem to stop higher ranking folks from working with me on occasion...and ditto for dudes below my rank... Some of these 25 year old BJJ Brown Belts are really good at sharing what they know...We all have something to learn from each other most of the time...

William Hazen
Our day to talk I guess! lol!

Having just come from BJJ practice a hour ago where a bunch or 20 year old white belts wore my old ass out...this is near and dear to my heart.

I do well for the most part with newbs and guys with less than a couple of years experience. However, going on 45...meh! It ain't so easy to do and I have to constantly work hard and I am constantly reminded that I don't have the strength, speed, stamina or agility that these guys do...nor will I ever gain it as I am on the downhill slide of life! LOL!

So, if you base the value solely on winning or dominating...I am very much screwed and should be working backwards in belts at this point! LOL!

It is frustrating, but my instructor constantly reminds me that there is more progression than this in BJJ. I have years of experience, the ability to communicate, to read people, to teach, and a breadth of experience. I am learning a different type of BJJ now...one that is gentle, subtle, refined...my job is not so much whooping up on the young guys and going toe to toe...but being there, being the last one off the mat, serving as a leader and role model....counseling, helping them develop their games...talking to them, helping them out etc.

Yea...there is alot more to "Rank" than the superficial stuff!

Thanks WIlliam!

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2009, 09:49 PM   #29
jxa127
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 420
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Personally, I think lineage is much more important in a koryu art than in aikido. After all, a koryu isn't a koryu without proper lineage. In aikido, though, being a student of a student of a student of a student of O Sensei is no guarantee that you're studying the art as O Sensei created it. Several articles by Stan Pranin and more recently, Peter Goldsbury's articles on Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12008), are making it quite clear that O Sensei did not try to formalize his art and pass it down the way koryu arts are passed down.

So I think a focus on lineage is silly in aikido. Organizational affiliation can be important. The major organizations set and maintain certain standards for grading, which at the very least ensures that a minimum level of skill is required for each rank. As far as I know, many (if not most) of the major organizations in the USA are affiliated with the Aikikai.

But organizations have their disadvantages too. When the leader of an organization dies, or political problems arise (or both), people frequently split off and found their own organizations taking several affiliated dojo with them. Where does that leave the "lineage"?

For many people, though, there's not a lot of choice. If they want to study aikido, then they need to train at the only aikido dojo they have nearby. But even if somebody has a choice among several local aikido dojos, the quality of the instruction, the friendliness and skill of the head instructor and senior students, their work ethic, and the overall vibe of the dojo is more important than organizational affiliation or rank.

Respectfully submitted,

----
-Drew Ames
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2009, 10:14 PM   #30
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Good point about Aikido, but lineage may not be as strongly observed in Aikido then in Koryu. But, that doesn't mean it isn't as important.

I think only judging someone by their skill as a requirement for Aikido isn't a good thing. Because Aikido does have tradition and stuff. I don't think we can ignore that over skill.

If I said, I studied under Chiba sensei and my rank is from him that says something. If I say I just have skill that says something different.

If I said, I studied under Yamada sensei, and got my next rank from him, but didn't and was good at Aikidoka -regardless- what kind of person does that make me? Because you know no one is going to say they don't have rank in an art that ranks- regardless of skill.

If I go to Japan dojo, and study there lacking proper tradition and protocol and stuff, it could reflect upon me poorly and it presents the wrong impression, regardless of my skill.

There are sorts of other reasons I think of that haven't been mentioned to place equal weight on lineage and skill.

Last edited by Buck : 11-03-2009 at 10:17 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 01:19 AM   #31
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 932
Germany
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
Drew Ames wrote: View Post
I think lineage is much more important in a koryu art than in aikido.
Hm, in koryu you don't have to think about lineage because it is well documented and authorized by certificates.
Quote:
After all, a koryu isn't a koryu without proper lineage.
Exactly.

Quote:
In aikido, though, being a student of a student of a student of a student of O Sensei is no guarantee that you're studying the art as O Sensei created it.
No, it isn't. And there is noone studying the art exactly as O Sensei created it. Can't be and needn't to.

But exactly for that reason it is important to know the lineage of your teacher. So you can know and judge the development the art has gone through until coming up to you.

And that isn't to difficult yet:
For example in my case it is just three steps:
O Sensei > Yamaguchi > Endo (who himself studied a little under O Sensei) and Tissier > my teacher (who himself also studied under Yamaguchi)
That isn't too far away and one can easily follow that line.

Isn't that true for most of our teachers?

Sure, it is different from the formalized tradition of koryu but that's exactly why it is so important to know the lineage of a teacher.

Organizations like aikikai have a spectrum too broad (thank god!) too extrapolate something just from belonging to them.

Again my case: Our aikikai dojo and the aikikai dojo in the next town, which is influenced by another shihan, teach quite different waza.

Greetings,
Carsten
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 06:19 AM   #32
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

As long as I'm learning the right stuff, I'll train under anybody!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 06:40 AM   #33
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

yeah Ricky...but how to WE KNOW...you are training the "right stuff"?

Maybe your stuff is fake stuff, or a cheap knock off.

I fought a guy once that had counterfeit skills and you could tell...it was all so obvious.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 09:39 AM   #34
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
I understand your point Sensei, but there are also many folks who have authentic ranking and lineage, but their technique is not at the level of their "rank".
Absolutely true... Caveat Emptor!
But I have yet to see someone who is really good who has not had a lengthy direct teacher / student relationship with with a top teacher for many years. They may not have rank but they have that history.

I have never met anyone in Aikido who is really good at Aikido who had bounced from teacher to teacher, who never had some substantial period of time with a top teacher, who did it from videos or in his garage (shades of Tennenhouse for those that remember).

If you go to Japan and train , they don't ask what rank you are... they ask who is your teacher and how long have you trained?

If a guy says he is a 7th Dan, there are only two ways he did that. He either trained a long time under one or more legitimate teachers, or he promoted himself (or joined one of those BS organizations that cross promote).

Your chance of finding a solid teacher who doesn't have verifiable credentials is about zero, I think. And I don't mean rank. I have a friend who has trained directly under a top Shihan for many years and has simply refused promotion. He is one of the best people in the country. But the only way you will find out about him is to go to that Shihans dojo because he doesn't teach outside, doesn't travel and is almost unknown. However, if he were to leave and start his own place... I am sure that some way to give him the rank he deserves would be made. Anyway, his is an exceptional situation.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 09:43 AM   #35
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
As long as I'm learning the right stuff, I'll train under anybody!
Ricky,
The problem is knowing what the "right stuff" is. There is a teacher of "kenjutsu" who is widely known. People spent decades under him only to find that he had literally made up the style from watching chambarra movies.

When they finally got to see what real sword work looked like, it was crushing for them. They re-affiliated with a legitimate teacher but had to virtually start over.

When they had started , they didn't know what the real goods were.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 07:29 PM   #36
Lyle Laizure
 
Lyle Laizure's Avatar
Dojo: Hinode Dojo LLC
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 563
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

You know, I have never had a student or potential student ask me for credentials.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 10:08 PM   #37
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Absolutely true... Caveat Emptor!
But I have yet to see someone who is really good who has not had a lengthy direct teacher / student relationship with with a top teacher for many years. They may not have rank but they have that history.

I have never met anyone in Aikido who is really good at Aikido who had bounced from teacher to teacher, who never had some substantial period of time with a top teacher, who did it from videos or in his garage (shades of Tennenhouse for those that remember).

If you go to Japan and train , they don't ask what rank you are... they ask who is your teacher and how long have you trained?

If a guy says he is a 7th Dan, there are only two ways he did that. He either trained a long time under one or more legitimate teachers, or he promoted himself (or joined one of those BS organizations that cross promote).

Your chance of finding a solid teacher who doesn't have verifiable credentials is about zero, I think. And I don't mean rank. I have a friend who has trained directly under a top Shihan for many years and has simply refused promotion. He is one of the best people in the country. But the only way you will find out about him is to go to that Shihans dojo because he doesn't teach outside, doesn't travel and is almost unknown. However, if he were to leave and start his own place... I am sure that some way to give him the rank he deserves would be made. Anyway, his is an exceptional situation.
I agree.

We don't have to stick with Aikido to prove it. I am using MMA and BJJ because there are posters who take it. It isn't just subject to MMA/BJJ, but many arts other than Koryu arts weigh lineage. Take BJJ (Gracies). Take MMA as well. Who you study with does make a difference in lots of ways. Do you study MMA under a UFC xxx Champion, or the guy who you think is good out of his garage? Do you really what to say you are learning from the guy who lost in the Ultimate Fighter and was sent home; despite his wicked fast hands.

When your in that bar throwing a few brews down and talking MMA do you care about who is teaching you? When it comes bragging on your S**T you going to say, I was trained by a guy out of his garage because he kicks my A**. He's got a wicked abrazo. He comes up with some sick Fantasia. Or do you say, yea I rolled with Renzo. I train under Matt Hughes. Neither of which guarantee everyone they train will be MMA champions. If you want to have a shot at being a champion you have to be trained by the best. Like George said, what is "right?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 10:27 PM   #38
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Absolutely true... Caveat Emptor!
Your chance of finding a solid teacher who doesn't have verifiable credentials is about zero, I think. And I don't mean rank. I have a friend who has trained directly under a top Shihan for many years and has simply refused promotion. He is one of the best people in the country. But the only way you will find out about him is to go to that Shihans dojo because he doesn't teach outside, doesn't travel and is almost unknown. However, if he were to leave and start his own place... I am sure that some way to give him the rank he deserves would be made. Anyway, his is an exceptional situation.
This is what I am saying. If your friend, who seems to love Aikido, went out and started a dojo, but still refused rank or to belong to an organization, couldn't he still have students? If he is as good as you make him seem and I go an observe him and agree with you, then why does he have to have a rank or a title? Bruce Lee didn't have a rank or a title, but after seeing him, many people wanted to train under him.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 10:37 PM   #39
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

I think for most of us we train with the best we have available to us based on location, time, money and access.

Based on my location right now in Wash DC area and the fact that I get to travel to some good places, it has been a great two years for me, and I have made it a point to seek out the best teachers I can find that are willing to work with me.

I have rolled with some world class MMAer and BJJers and some of them either can't teach or are not really willing to teach me at least. It was fun, but it just wasn't gonna happen.

So, that guy that kicks your ass in the garage may be all you got and you have to make the best of it and take from him what you can learn and move on.

I have spent a few years developing my decision making criteria and "formula" for what I want and need to learn (and it evolves as my perspective and experiences improve).

So for me it is not so hard to evaluate what someone can teach me and what I can learn from them. I learn from white belts in BJJ. Just last night a guy with little experience was putting a hurt on me in a particular way that I could not deal with. So I went to work trying to figure that out...so he was my teacher last night.

In my Aikido practice it is the same. I have senior instructors and sensei that are great mentors to me and they see stuff I don't and "suggest" that I step outside my defaults and habits and try something different and I do. So, this mentorship is a little more intentional and based on a long term relationship and investment of time and energy.

I think in the beginning it is hard to figure this out and folks will struggle to develop their evaluation critieria. Heck you have no basis for it.

So, you get what you get and what you have access to.

When I first started Karate years ago...it was all pretty simple to me. Some guy wearing a black belt in a health club had legitimacy simply because he was there and had a class. I didn't look around nor really care...it is what I had access to. It seemed reasonable that he knew more than me...I tested that theory and it was true.

It could have been some guy in a garage, or that got his black belt from a spotty organization...and I also look back now on what we were doing then, and while okay...it was at a much lower skill level than where I am today!

But, as time goes, you get exposed to more and more I think and you grow if you want to and then things change.

In order for me to advance at this point I have to dump alot of time, money, and effort in my commitment. Going to seminars, plane airfare, lots of time in the dojo, teaching when asked to...

I would not recommend what I am doing to a beginner, it would be a waste of time and money since they simply cannot make use of this level of training yet. (Not that mine is earth shatteringly high mind you!).

Again, I think for most out there, lineage is not that important, because you don't have alot of choice starting out....If you live in my hometown in central VA you don't have alot of options. No aikido options that I am aware of, unless you drive 1.5 hours each way! So, you will go down to the local MMA school..that guy may have learned in the garage...and as long as he is one step ahead of you...then he is what you have for lineage and he is the expert!

Lots of good clubs have been started this way.

Heck when I started in BJJ in Germany it was literally two of us with youtube, some books, and alot of enthusiasm! I'd lead the classes and was the head instructor! Big Fish in a small pond.

Now that I am back in DC area..well I am a student. If and when I return to another assignment with no one there...well, I become the instructor again!

So, yeah I agree with George of course, but in the end...you get what you get and you make the best of it until something better comes along and that is just the way it is, unless you have lots of money and time to do what you want!

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2009, 06:00 AM   #40
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 865
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
Someone I know had a conversation with an instructor, who on paper, has a very authentic ranking of 7th dan & Shihan. But that instructor has gone out on his own, having gotten tired of all the politics in Aikido and the fact that rank is often just "given out". The person I know has been feeling the same way and thought about going independent and it was suggested to him to leave off ranking all together. The person told the Shihan that people always want to see your credentials before deciding to train under you. The Shihan replied, "Let your technique be your calling card". So my question to everyone here is, would you train under a Sensei who had no "rank". If you went to see this person and could really tell he had skills and you were impressed, would it matter to you that he does not have any ranking from any organization? Would you need to see any ranking he held from a previous organization, or would his technique be enough for you?
I joined my instructor because he can kick my ass and he can teach me how he does it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2009, 06:05 AM   #41
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Ricky,
The problem is knowing what the "right stuff" is. There is a teacher of "kenjutsu" who is widely known. People spent decades under him only to find that he had literally made up the style from watching chambarra movies.

When they finally got to see what real sword work looked like, it was crushing for them. They re-affiliated with a legitimate teacher but had to virtually start over.

When they had started , they didn't know what the real goods were.
Good point George. One has to get around and feel alot of folks. If they have something you want to learn, go back, otherwise, keep looking, neh?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2009, 06:16 AM   #42
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

All I am saying is you can't discount lineage. Yea, it is more important to some than others, but you can't say it isn't important. And Koryu might treat it differently than other arts, but you really can't say it isn't important when so much of the world we live in values lineage of some sort.

Even those who come out of obscurity and become well known in what they do, start a lineage (by default or intentionally) that becomes valued. His reputation itself is the start of lineage when anyone says, I learned from this or that guy, giving credit for their skill. Lineage more often than not comes out of reputation of skill.

I think if someone says lineage (just as skill) isn't important they haven't seen the importance lineage plays in the arts and in the world.

I understand what some are saying about lineage. I think what we really are talking about is how much weight a person, personally, put on lineage. That is an individual choice and we should respect the views and traditions of others- generally speaking.

Last edited by Buck : 11-05-2009 at 06:19 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2009, 09:39 AM   #43
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
This is what I am saying. If your friend, who seems to love Aikido, went out and started a dojo, but still refused rank or to belong to an organization, couldn't he still have students? If he is as good as you make him seem and I go an observe him and agree with you, then why does he have to have a rank or a title? Bruce Lee didn't have a rank or a title, but after seeing him, many people wanted to train under him.
Of course he would still have students but it would be difficult for him to build on that. Rank and or lineage give you "access". That's why everyone goes to such lengths to make it up. There is certainly a point at which the people who know, can see that you have the goods without needing to ask.

But you start at a disadvantage. Most folks who are teaching but say they aren't into rank and don't have a verifiable training history are bogus. There might be a small minority who are exceptional but like I said, I've trained for 33 years and I know ONE person like this, and he hasn't chosen to go out and teach.

As for Bruce Lee, he had years under Yip Man, an extremely well known Wing Chun teacher in Hong Kong. He was not coming out of some murky background, everyone knew exactly who his teacher had been and that it had been top notch.

In Bruce's case, he sped up the process of establishing himself by competing and winning in a number of high profile matches (except for my good friend choking him out - long before the UFC). Aikido generally doesn't have that option. So the art attracts a whole range of self styled teachers with vague training histories. Beginners don't know what to look for so they get away with it.

It's not really common, I think, for people to completely falsify their lineage (you only get a Tennenhouse once in a while). It is more common for a third or fourth Dan to feel that his talents haven't been sufficiently rewarded by his teacher and the next thing you know he has his own style and is a Shihan, or some such. All mention of his training history disappears off the website and he starts joining those bogus martial arts organizations that exist to give people like this credibility.

One person I know even has a Phd now from a martial arts "University" for whom he wrote a thesis. He calls himself "Doctor" in addition to being a "Shihan". His prior affiliations have been expunged and he's paid for one of those "Hall of Fame" awards we all gets the ads for... Would you train with someone like that?

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2009, 09:49 AM   #44
Asiatic Budoka
 
Asiatic Budoka's Avatar
Dojo: Asiatic Martial Arts - Bushinkan Dojo
Location: Chicago
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

I suppose if he has no "rank" he could give out kaiden scrolls to his students instead of kyu and dan ranks huh?

Shareef Muhammad

"In order to change our condition, we must first change our way of thinking...it is actually thought that changes us.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2009, 04:05 PM   #45
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

I will add also that lineage is about (but not always) keeping a history, and tradition, a continuity of a thing. In martial arts, skill/reputation does play a part of lineage, and we see that with O'Sensei and his lineage.

Martial arts skill isn't limited to just a contest fight. When we talk about martial arts skill it should be talked about in a full scope and breath, and treated as the dynamic it is. For example, Yabusame takes a variety of honed skills to be accomplished at it. It is made up of difficult and complexed skill sets. It is not as easy to learn as throwing punches or using a choke to win a contest.

Most important is that skill isn't only about about defeating someone else in a violent way. Skill can also be about not hurting someone and still defeating them in a non-violent way.

Being part of a lineage doesn't mean you aren't or are skilled. It means you are part of a chain, a link, of people, who learned from someone considered to be the founder of the line. And it doesn't really have to be about skill, but usually it is in martial arts. But, that doesn't have to be. Lineage has value and shouln't be discounted. Or it should be reduced to a measurement of contest skill.

.

Last edited by Buck : 11-05-2009 at 04:15 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2009, 07:17 PM   #46
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
yeah Ricky...but how to WE KNOW...you are training the "right stuff"?

Maybe your stuff is fake stuff, or a cheap knock off.

I fought a guy once that had counterfeit skills and you could tell...it was all so obvious.
I wouldn't recommend anyone train under me.
My stuff may indeed be fake. Hell, I might not even have stuff.
I don't fight much anymore, but I like to train pretty hard. Whether or not I'm wasting my time is anyone's guess.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2009, 08:48 PM   #47
osaya
 
osaya's Avatar
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 51
Australia
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Currently armed with *some* aikido experience, and having a better idea of what to look out for, I'd be quite happy to train with a "no rank" sensei if 1) the sensei was good, 2) there's something i can/want to learn from him/her and 3) s/he was able to transmit that knowledge.
Fees, location and all that other stuff would obviously be factors in making my decision, but in regard to rank vs. no rank, that's a minimal concern for me at this stage of my aikido career.

That said, if I was a complete beginner, I doubt I would have gone for a 'no rank sensei' because I wouldn't know what the heck I was looking at/for. I'd probably take a safer bet and go for something that sounded a bit more secure/credible.

FWIW, sy
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2009, 10:47 PM   #48
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Are we talking about someone who never had rank or someone who does not advertise it or gave it up.

A huge difference.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2009, 11:46 PM   #49
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Are we talking about someone who never had rank or someone who does not advertise it or gave it up.

A huge difference.
Could be both. What if the person just trained and never wanted to test? What if the person was 3rd dan or above and just got tired of all of the politics and just decided to teach what they knew? Would it make that much of a difference? What about reputation?

Last edited by Nafis Zahir : 11-05-2009 at 11:48 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2009, 11:48 PM   #50
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: Would You Train Under A "No Rank" Sensei?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
In Bruce's case, he sped up the process of establishing himself by competing and winning in a number of high profile matches (except for my good friend choking him out - long before the UFC).

Sensei, I would really like to hear that story!

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 06:05 PM
Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu Mike Sigman Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 242 02-20-2009 07:54 PM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 09:50 PM
Saito sensei's funeral June 22-3, 2002 pyarrow General 3 06-14-2004 12:39 AM
Seminar Review: Saotome Sensei in MT akiy Seminars 0 10-03-2000 12:30 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:45 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate