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Old 10-14-2009, 12:48 PM   #26
DH
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Actually everything Chris wrote is contained in what Mark Murray wrote-not Kevin's. In fact the only way to actively and actually do what Chris is describing is in Mark's description. Kevin's talking point of "Internals aside" is to try and eliminate a possible contention, but it makes no sense in the discussion. It's just another attempt to re-direct the discussion of aikido to externally driven jujutsu, simply because its the popular way of doing it. You might as well say. "Let's talk about aikido without doing aikido."
How does saying "all internal aside compare with Ikeda's "No kokyu-no aikido?" Ikeda is basically saying no IP/aiki...no aikido.

I mean what's the point of having a discussion at all. Let' all go lift and do cardio and train MMA and be done with it.

IMO the only way aikido can be done is to do it the way Mark and Chris are describing-and Kevin actually agrees with; Aiki in yo ho; trained and contained within you means that when their energy meets your energy (their ki meets your ki), your's is the superior one, and your movement controls theirs ai-ki). Done any other way - you are just doing jujutsu, which is what the vast majority of aikido people are doing.

I understand that is a strong point of contention within the art, however, recent forays of senior teachers from the art of aikido in going out and feeling those with real aiki have remained consistent in their views- that aiki is not in fact being successfully taught or displayed in the art. Fortunately, they are doing something about that and leading the way. Comically, or should we say sadly, some are doing it in secret; some from their senior Japanese shihan and others from their own students!.

Everyone can participate and contribute on forums, that's to be expected, and all opinions may appear equal, but it only appears that way. Aiki is very non-partisan and flat. I have had many invites to "share" what I do by aikido teachers, who offered to then "share" what they do with me. I always ask to go first. It saves a lot of time and embarrassment, as so far; no one wanted to "share" what they were doing after I showed them what they "could" be doing. Aiki is a funny thing. You can talk about it and debate it all day long, if you meet someone who has aiki, it speaks for itself. In person-no ones "opinion" is required, it ids what it is.

I think what inhibits growth is people holding on to what has become comfortable to them. There is a lot of investiture in martial arts, that people struggle to let go of, there are few exceptions. Personally, I was among the most hard headed and foolish of us. It was very difficult for me to let go and simply stop doing everything that made me "feel" comfortable, and be willing to start over and re-invest. Of course landing on my ass, over and over and over was a good way to finally make me listen to what was being said to me . Aiki is peculiar that way, again, it is very flat, and non-diplomatic. It doesn't offer everyone an equal voice as it is "in your face" honest. It was that way in Takeda and Ueshiba's day; when they were doing and working their aiki in their MMA practice, and it still is today.
Despite the fact that generations have messed it up- nothing has changed; IP/ aiki is core of the art, and it is the best thing out there.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-14-2009 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:51 PM   #27
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Actually everything Chris wrote is contained in what Mark Murray wrote-not Kevin's. In fact the only way to actively and actually do what Chris is describing is in Mark's description. Kevin's talking point of "Internals aside" is to try and eliminate a possible contention, but it makes no sense in the discussion. It's just another attempt to re-direct the discussion of aikido to externally driven jujutsu, simply because its the popular way of doing it. You might as well say. "Let's talk about aikido without doing aikido."
Ah. Ya know, it ain't so all-fired turrible ta think just a bit critically about ways of describing the doing -- between the odd bouts of doing it ... I don't actually disagree with a thing Mark said..

But how many ways are there to describe the lift on a wing? Or must one first fly [insert badass aircraft of choice here] to understand what one is manipulating to get off the ground in some "lesser" aircraft? Or else must one learn piloting only from Chuck Yeager to understand hanggliders? I assure you lift works on the same principles regardless. Actually, the jet-jock supersonic aerodynamics are simpler than the actions of their "lesser" subsonic and transonic brethren. And all of those are simpler than their rotary-wing cousins -- and we just sit there hovering in one damn place ...

There is no hierarchy of energetic action implied from degrees of understanding the principles, only different regimes in applying them.

Or do Ring Lardner's Young Immigrunts walk abroad once more?

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Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How does saying "all internal aside compare with Ikeda's "No kokyu-no aikido?" Ikeda is basically saying no IP/aiki...no aikido.
...
I understand that is a strong point of contention within the art, ...
Not among those who pay attention to Ikeda ... apparently.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:06 PM   #28
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Dan Wrote:
Quote:
IMO the only way aikido can be done is to do it the way Mark and Chris are describing-and Kevin actually agrees with; Aiki in yo ho; trained and contained within you means that when their energy meets your energy (their ki meets your ki), your's is the superior one, and your movement controls theirs ai-ki). Done any other way - you are just doing jujutsu, which is what the vast majority of aikido people are doing.
Essentially I agree with what Mark and Chris wrote...no issues really.

Want to clarify my position a little on this.

I said, "Internals Aside" as you state because I did not want to get into the issue at all.

Yes, I am addressing simply the Jiujitsu of it.

Yes, I agree actually Dan, that it is not Aiki that I am discussing, but simply the mechanics of what I consider to be good jiu jitsu.

On the subject..."Just doing Jiu Jitsu, which is what alot of the vast majority of AIkido people are doing". ...

Maybe, maybe not. I see alot of stuff out there that runs the middle road....that is, poor aiki and poor jiujitsu too.

A little kokyu that is bastardized with with some pseduo allegoric, philosophical mechanic of a technique that resembles jiu-jitsu. This gets translated into "harmony" or "blending".

I think good jiu jitsu is a combination of alot of things, kuzushi as Mark states, being very important along with body postion, alignment, and posture, breathing, etc.

I leave the "internal discussion" out of it, as I think there is alot of fundamentals that we can discuss without even bringing that subject up.

I do agree however, that what I am talking about has little or nothing to do with Aiki in this context.

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Old 10-14-2009, 08:55 PM   #29
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Tim Evans wrote: View Post
How do I keep uke from sensing what I,m doing? I have been having this happen on ukes who have trained in differrent martial arts styles and are conditioned to react a certain way. I guess I still am feeling "choppy" on my movements.
There are many things you might be doing that alerts someone to what you are doing, its hard to tell without seeing your technique. Using too much strength, moving too fast, winding up before you move, moving your feet before your hands, are all bad habits. I have also had experience with people from different backgrounds reacting differently. Recently we had some wrestlers in our dojo. I remember they liked to attempt roll out of everything midway. This was when I was doing it slow without really taking their balance. So, I sharpened my technique, made it tighter and smaller and moved at a more normal speed, and then everything worked out fine. Then they asked me to slow down again and make it bigger so that they could see what i was doing. ha!

I believe that internal strength is one important piece of the puzzle that makes up Aikido, but it is only one piece. Technique, timing, distance, connection, BLENDING, irimi, absorption, tenkan, among many others, are all also very important. The problem I see with many schools is that they take one piece of the puzzle and mistake it for everything, preaching to everyone else that THIS IS IT, THIS is the true Aikido!

So here we are now talking about one piece of the puzzle, blending. I agree that many may look at this with different definitions. I too, once didn't like this term, because as others mentioned, it seemed to imply that my actions were dictated by the uke's. So, therefore if uke is fast, I had to be equally as fast, if his attacks were strong I had to be equally as strong. I may not be able to be as strong or as fast, and then an attacker might use this as a strategy to change up his technique to confuse and defeat me. However, there is one thing that doesn't change, doesn't move, and that's the person. Some may call this "connecting with the other's center". But the difference between connecting and blending, I think is a recognition and appreciation (not gratitude) of who is standing in front of me. This is where there may be a degree of adaptation, or matching, where two separate entities become one. What I'm talking about in very plain terms is that for example, if working with someone who is very flexible, you have to make your technique sharper, if working with someone who is very stiff, then don't try so hard to bend their arm so much when doing ikkyo. In public speaking, one must consider the audience. In windsurfing, I consider the weather of the day, not each individual breeze to decide what size board and sail to use. I can choose what I want to do, but when it comes to how I do it, I must consider the uke. That, I think is blending.

-John Matsushima

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Old 10-15-2009, 06:59 AM   #30
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Hello
I see blending as countering you partner opponent attack without giving him a reason to change what he is doing.
So if some one tries to grab you by the shoulder.
Regardless if you irimi to the side as you hit him with your te-katana or your fist or you tenchin back and grab his wrist with the other hand, it is all blending.
And in lots of way palming a jab off and responding with a across or a thai kick in the floating ribs is blending just the same.
Or fencing wise it a one time void counter or a counter in opposition.

Really we can apply all that to the phase of movement as you get into effective range, where you are blending with movement/intention/guard whatever you want to call it.
So it does not matter if is attack or defence, I would say blending is integrating what you do to what he does or what you make him do.

Phil

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Old 10-15-2009, 08:24 AM   #31
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Dan Wrote:

Essentially I agree with what Mark and Chris wrote...no issues really.

Want to clarify my position a little on this.

I said, "Internals Aside" as you state because I did not want to get into the issue at all.

Yes, I am addressing simply the Jiujitsu of it.

Yes, I agree actually Dan, that it is not Aiki that I am discussing, but simply the mechanics of what I consider to be good jiu jitsu.

On the subject..."Just doing Jiu Jitsu, which is what alot of the vast majority of AIkido people are doing". ...

Maybe, maybe not. I see alot of stuff out there that runs the middle road....that is, poor aiki and poor jiujitsu too.

A little kokyu that is bastardized with with some pseduo allegoric, philosophical mechanic of a technique that resembles jiu-jitsu. This gets translated into "harmony" or "blending".

I think good jiu jitsu is a combination of alot of things, kuzushi as Mark states, being very important along with body postion, alignment, and posture, breathing, etc.

I leave the "internal discussion" out of it, as I think there is alot of fundamentals that we can discuss without even bringing that subject up.

I do agree however, that what I am talking about has little or nothing to do with Aiki in this context.
Hi Kevin,
I think we're in the initial stage of the next round of "contention".

We had the rounds of "aiki" until people started getting hands on experience. Now, that's pretty much history as quite a lot of people understand the truth of the matter. The ripple effect will certainly reach many more.

And as that happens, people will start to realize that what most have called "aikido", really has been "jujutsu". But for now, IMO, it's just an initial stage of conversation and we've touched on it here in this thread.

Look at this
Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
So if some one tries to grab you by the shoulder.
Regardless if you irimi to the side as you hit him with your te-katana or your fist or you tenchin back and grab his wrist with the other hand, it is all blending.

Really we can apply all that to the phase of movement as you get into effective range, where you are blending with movement/intention/guard whatever you want to call it.
Phil
I would imagine that most people view that as aikido. Some would take out the atemi portion and say it's aikido. But throughout the post, there was an underlying truth of physical movement to gain the "blending". Blend with physical movement = jujutsu. No aiki, no aikido. No kokyu, no aikido.

or this post
Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
I believe that internal strength is one important piece of the puzzle that makes up Aikido, but it is only one piece. Technique, timing, distance, connection, BLENDING, irimi, absorption, tenkan, among many others, are all also very important. The problem I see with many schools is that they take one piece of the puzzle and mistake it for everything, preaching to everyone else that THIS IS IT, THIS is the true Aikido!

So here we are now talking about one piece of the puzzle, blending.
IMO, aiki makes up 50% of aikido. The other half is Ueshiba's spiritual outlook/vision/whatever you want to call it. That's aikido.

IMO, when most people start looking at "timing, distance, connection, BLENDING, irimi, absorption, tenkan", then they're looking at jujutsu. Except most people call that aikido.

And so, I think a second round of contention is going to be started. After the "aiki" hands-on experiences pretty much shut all of us up, so, too, I think the "jujutsu" aspect will happen in 3-5 years. Once enough of the people training aiki get out and about, then many more people will start feeling exactly what that is.

Until then, well, we'll have our posts and threads about it. It certainly isn't something easy to read, digest, and then criticize one's own 10, 20 or more years of training just from the Internet. Hence, the contention. But, hands-on experience, as many of us know first hand, well, it ends all debate. There was no aiki, just jujutsu.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:54 AM   #32
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
...
And so, I think a second round of contention is going to be started. After the "aiki" hands-on experiences pretty much shut all of us up, so, too, I think the "jujutsu" aspect will happen in 3-5 years. ...
Hi Mark,
That is a very interesting post.
Can you please explain more about the above quoted portion? I do not think I catch your meaning..
Josh
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:28 AM   #33
Adman
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Mark,
That is a very interesting post.
Can you please explain more about the above quoted portion? I do not think I catch your meaning..
Josh
I can't speak for Mark, but it appears he left it pretty open-ended. So, pick your poison. With aiki, do you then move on to practice aiki-do, Ueshiba's Aikido™, Some Shihan's Aikido, generic aikido, etc? How does the technique change/evolve in each, with IS? Is "jujutsu" a requirement?

The question for me, just leaves a lot to ponder, looking ahead. And should spark it's own interesting thread.

Best,
Adam
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:59 AM   #34
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

As a "Jiu Jitsu Player" and Combatives Instructor I tend to agree with Mark. I train in BJJ and Judo pretty much full time these days and I actively compete...so I get all the JJ without having to set foot in an aikido dojo. I train with some pretty decent JJ guys both from a "reality based scenario" and from a "sport perspective".

So, when I go to my Aikido dojo, I am not so concerned with JJ...I want to concentrate on Aiki training methods..which while definitely a big part of JJ...when you look at it from a pedagogy point of view...you a choosing a concentrated focus on a definitive area of your practice.

It is not saying that Aiki is not in JJ...ultimately to have "good JJ" it has to be.

But purely from a learning stand point...I think it becomes a focused practice on a particular set of skills that strips away all the elements of training that do not help improve those skills.

Hence removing the timing, speed, tactical positioning, ma ai....all that stuff.

That is why the distinction is made...not that there is any real distinction in application or reality...but that it helps to distingush and define so you can manage your training and feedback processes.

I think though, as Mark has discovered as well...that once this starts making sense to you and the training methods become clearer...you end up segregating your practice in this way.

My Aiki dojo time I'd rather spend time training and learning aiki....and in my JJ dojo time I'd rather spend time learning JJ skills.

Integrating them together...well I try everyday during newaza or randori training...but I just ain't that good so I try, but go back to the drawing board.

What I do experience alot in Aikido is that when we try and combine both skill sets....well you end up with a half ass attempt of befuddlement that is neither good aiki training or good jiu jitsu training and you end up with a mediocre practice of "feeling good" and going home with no real gains.

Hey we have the same issue in my BJJ school...some guys, usually the white and new blue belts simply want to roll/randori all the time. Yea it is fun, but no progression takes place cause all you do is do the things you are comfortable with and gravitate to your current experience base.

Good, sound, training methodology/pedagogy is formed around isolation models for a reason.

I believe in the end, this is all that is really being said.

I don't believe that Mark really is ultimately saying this as a "judgement" of aiki/non-aiki abilitties, but more as a categorization of training methodolgy.

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Old 10-15-2009, 09:59 AM   #35
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
I can't speak for Mark, but it appears he left it pretty open-ended. So, pick your poison. With aiki, do you then move on to practice aiki-do, Ueshiba's Aikido™, Some Shihan's Aikido, generic aikido, etc? How does the technique change/evolve in each, with IS? Is "jujutsu" a requirement?

The question for me, just leaves a lot to ponder, looking ahead. And should spark it's own interesting thread.

Best,
Adam
Nicely written and better than I could have done. Thank you.
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:42 AM   #36
DH
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
I can't speak for Mark, but it appears he left it pretty open-ended. So, pick your poison. With aiki, do you then move on to practice aiki-do, Ueshiba's Aikido™, Some Shihan's Aikido, generic aikido, etc? How does the technique change/evolve in each, with IS? Is "jujutsu" a requirement?

The question for me, just leaves a lot to ponder, looking ahead. And should spark it's own interesting thread.

Best,
Adam
Since I coined Aikido™ as opposed to aiki...do, allow me to clarify.
Ueshiba's aikido was aiki...do (the way of aiki)
Everyone else is doing versions of ,Aikido.™ If there is aiki that to any serious degree, I have yet to feel it, or see it on film, from anyone in the art. IMO, it's all jujutsu. The closest I have seen anyone come to using aiki is Ikeda and Gleason.

What Mark referred to as the shut up factor is the ever widening testimony that no teacher in the art has been able to use their understanding of aiki from Aikido™ in any successful fashion against those doing real aiki. So the smart people are starting to consider the fact that the art...missed it. They didn't get aiki -in- Aikido™ so they are pursuing it IP/Aiki, elsewhere to once again make.Aikido™ -. aiki...do

Oddly, the most senior people to embrace this are from the ASU; Ikeda. Gleason, and Ledyard. Others are also training from a wide variety of branches.
So, in some respects it is "problem solved." The reason I say that is the teachers who are training this way are already noting the change in their Aikido™. Many are reporting they are having a hard time doing
Aikido™. the same way they have for decades. Aiki is changing the way they move and the way uke's respond. I have been privy to conversations with their own students who say" X teacher now blows right through me, or gathers and me and tosses me and I don't know what happened. I am finding it difficult to take his ukemi anymore. The change in him was both dramatic, and fast."
Also worthy of note is the teachers who are training this have teachers who are taking note of the rapid improvement. The best quote I heard was of a certain teacher who's shihan above them noted "Oh my, you're finally getting this!" And the guy thought to himself "Ya, no thanks to you! I finally found someone who can teach!!"

So, if Mark is correct this sort of thing is going to continue. All of these teachers have peers and seniors who are going to feel them and by comparison are not going to be able to do a thing -too them. They will by default become the best in the art, because they will be the ones doing aiki...do.
Aiki is not very diplomatic. You can't hide it, and once someone touches you its all over, for the simple reason that.because of it, both you and those of lesser skills are instantly exposed for their worth.

Jujutsu
jujutsu, is too complex a topic. It goes from crude levering and footwork, to high level positioning, entering and set-ups that almost just...happen. One of my favorite sayings is "Jujutsu...happens."
Because of the high level nature of good jujutsu people confuse it with aiki.

Quotes are always interesting.
Sagawa said "Without aiki- there is no jujutsu."
How's that for a different view!
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-15-2009 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:15 PM   #37
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The closest I have seen anyone come to using aiki is Ikeda and Gleason.
Well, good to know poor old Ikeda barely makes the cut ...

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
... the ever widening testimony that no teacher in the art has been able to use their understanding of aiki from Aikido™ in any successful fashion against those doing real aiki. So the smart people are starting to consider the fact that the art...missed it.
[emphasis added] -- Yes, nobody wants to be counted apart from the "smart people" do they?

If you have evidence, actual "smart people" actually ask for that evidence to be actually produced.

The word for unattributed statements of unidentified people as proof of unidentified person's purported poor qualities is not "testimony" -- it is, at best, "innuendo" -- and more correctly, "specious rumor." and at worst "group libel," perhaps. Names, dates sources and quotes -- then maybe we have some merely "naked hearsay." Still more reliable than what we have here... regardless how talented one is personally reputed to be.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:17 PM   #38
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Re: Blending with the attack.

i don't know. this is btdt afaik.

Ikeda Shihan is importing another to help elucidate and teach right?
It is also equally well known now that Gleason Shihan has been with and training with DH. That man is very well known and has written books on Aikido and deigns to train with DH.

What is the problem?
I don't see how it's 'hearsay' at this point.

You could ask Rob Liberti, as he and Gleason train with DH, but I think he's sick of us assholes by now.

[spoiler]
"Professing to be wise, they became fools".
Let that not be written about us Erick!
[/spoiler]
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:18 PM   #39
DH
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Well, good to know poor old Ikeda barely makes the cut ...
[emphasis added] -- Yes, nobody wants to be counted apart from the "smart people" do they?
If you have evidence, actual "smart people" actually ask for that evidence to be actually produced.
The word for unattributed statements of unidentified people as proof of unidentified person's purported poor qualities is not "testimony" -- it is, at best, "innuendo" -- and more correctly, "specious rumor." and at worst "group libel," perhaps. Names, dates sources and quotes -- then maybe we have some merely "naked hearsay." Still more reliable than what we have here... regardless how talented one is personally reputed to be.
Eric
Ikeda freely experiments and has adopted training to improve his aikido. So does Gleason.
If you are defending aikido that’s fine and I would agree with you. The teachers I have met are very good at aikido.
I am talking about aiki. A different topic; which according to your writing and from hands on evidence you know nothing about. But that's okay too. No harm no foul. It just means you can't really grasp the topic that Ikeda and Gleason already have grasped and are training in.

Are you stating that you consider -all-senior teachers in aikido to be the epitome of aiki? Is that what you are implying? Am I to assume you mean this to include- at least incrementally- other teachers as well? I have been told just the opposite by many aikido teachers, who openly discuss the difference between aiki within aikido and aikido proper.
I have my own hands on experiences, and evidence from watching film- aiki is easily seen in motion. Aikido movement is easy to dissect, so is aiki-provided you have aiki to begin with. I haven't seen it in any serious depth in aikido. If you have; tell me where, and tell me how? But please understand I am not taking about good aikido teachers. I am talking about aiki.
For me- you are free to ask any of the students or teachers from various aiki arts who train here-including Gleason. Please ask them if they could do anything to me...anything at all. Then please ask them, comparatively how well they think other aikido teachers- including the highest ranked people they know and have EVER laid hands on would do? And then report back here.
I would love to read it.

Aiki is a VERY defining and narrow topic that not just anyone in aikido knows and can do. Again, I am not talking about aikido
More importantly, one, by one, the seniors who have finally felt aiki, are training in it. Some without their shihans knowing, others don't care, and some with out their students knowing. But talented men will find a way to grow no matter who they are. And that's a good thing.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-15-2009 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:05 PM   #40
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Dear Josh and Dan:

I did not ask for arguments.

I simply asked for actual evidence.

Ikeda has "freely experimented" since I first heard of him -- following Saotome's example, FWIW. Those in that lineage don't shy from pursuing their own views (some similar, some divergent, look at Ikeda, Hooker and Sparkman for starters, not to mention, Gleason). So the imputation of "self-doubt" that many assume in that regard (and Josh seems to suggest), has zero weight to me for that reason. Curiosity is no more an indictment than a carefully drawn statement.

All of them explore -- curiosity and welcoming fellowship with other approaches is hardly a mark of inadequacy or self-doubt -- might be irrelevant -- but hardly damning. What seems right and is working they follow where it leads, as Saotome encourages everyone, but -- with due respect for both teachers and tradition. Those latter points are not debatable (AFAIAC) but matters of honor.

Hence, while performance criticism may be warranted in a given instance -- and should be accepted if given in substance, from anyone, on any point of evident error -- citing specific facts and sources are the chief measure of good faith and charity in that criticism -- in my opinion. And I would like to believe in good faith when criticism is lodged.

But since Gleason and Ikeda were taken off the table -- I guess they don't count -- one way or the other.

OTOH -- I would find it, let us say, ... interesting ... if Dan would claim any portion of what Gleason is doing here, or here, given that, as I reckon it, these represent some time after he and Gleason have made their respective acquaintance.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:39 PM   #41
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Hi Erick,
I apologize for interjecting into your conversation. I was not trying to argue. I thought I was helping to address your questions directly.

Honestly, I think it was a lapse of judgment on my side as your last post makes clear to me that I don't know what you are talking about, with certainty, nor what exactly it is you are asking for proof of. At the time I thought I did. I shouldn't have spoken out when I didn't know what was actually being said.
Again; I'm sorry about that.
With respect,
Josh
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:49 PM   #42
HL1978
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Erick in video 1, the first half of the video it seems that he is trying to get under uke after first giving some sort of explanation of a groundpath by stating that it is naturally felt in ones furthest away foot. He then proceeds to utilize a simple drop of his center of gravity in order to get under uke, as he claims to get ahold of his center.

You actually don't need to bend your legs to get under someone to manipulate their center, but it is the easiest way to do so if you don't know how to get "under" your partner.

He then shows a similar way for a pull, but again, dropping your weight is the easiest way to manipulate the pull and effect your partner. There are other ways of doing so that don't require bending your legs in such an obvious movement.

Of course if you can do this on contact without a visible drop of the legs, its someting all together different.
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:59 PM   #43
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Erick,
I apologize for interjecting into your conversation. I was not trying to argue. I thought I was helping to address your questions directly.

Josh
It wasn't a reproach, just a request. Your argument was fine. I don't agree with it, because it needs more support, but that's OK -- and that's why I asked.


Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:28 AM   #44
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Dear Josh and Dan:
I did not ask for arguments. I simply asked for actual evidence.
You want to get real, Eric? Okay. I'll be frank,
I think your interest in real evidence of such a profoundly different way to approach aikido than modern adepts are using to gain aiki- that you have no clue about-ended long ago when you chose to never actually go feel and test people who can actually do it, or acknowledge the hundreds of posts of your seniors who have done so.
Your challenges for evidence are disengenuous.
Your interest in involving yourself everytime the topic arrises, and your obvious disinterest in exposing yourself to hands on evidence says everything you need to say. It makes it's own statement.
Again you have been tested and it is (as all of us suspected all along) now known you don't have a clue what we are talking about. And all of your models and quasi- scientific reasoning are as meaningless as they are long. Why do I say that a) They do not apply to what I, we, are doing and b) they have not helped you to do anything that anyone we know of recognizes as unsusual skill.
Again Eric, I am discussing aiki- not aikido. From what I am told you are an okay aikido person, but that's it. You have no high level aiki skills nor any understanding at all in how to produce it.

As for the other teachers you commented on.
Kevin is a friend of mine, Kevin has watched me toss around some of Ledyard and Chiba, and Beirries men with impunity. "His" comments were that the current state of aikido is appalling and that aikido buy and large; has missed it, doesn't have aiki, and I quote. "they wouldn't know aiki if it jumped up and bit em in the ass." He is rather direct that way. Not without merit is noting that Kevin was pursuing Aiki from a friend in Daito ryu.
We had a long dinner after this with several aikido 5th and 6th dans and Koryu menkyo; all sitting at the same table. The conversation did not go too well for aikido that day, and Kevin was quite vocal. Using Kevin was a smart choice, thank you, Eric. Maybe also not without merit is that three of the examples you chose to cite have pursued aiki outside of aikido. Good on yer Eric.
Thanks for proving my point.

As for Bill, I have tossed Bill around with impunity. Unlike you he not only did not mind he wanted to test me to the max with everything he had. I don't think you deserve to carry his shoes.
As is with every other experience-I have no doubt whatsoever that Ikeda would be powerless to do anything to me at all, nor Saotome.
I can go on to include many more "highly ranked"(which should by now prove how meaningless rank is) teachers from Aikido and Daito ryu as well as students of those arts, as well as the more modern combative arts like Judo, karate, and MMA that I have trained /sparred and or fought, but what's the point? That they are being completely handled with aiki is meaningless and alien to you. The depth and meaning of my public statements going "unchallenged" goes right over your head as well.
Aiki is non political and deadly honest. You either know it or you don't.

That you are facing a method that everyone I have ever met - in any art ...wants, is meaningless to you as well. Again your "sincere" search for evidence seems to not include everyone who has gone out to actually test things with Mike, Ark, Ushiro and me.
That is all that need be said about you.

Commenting on Gleasons video
I will comment on Bill's movement when the community feels equally comfortable and receptive with me commenting on Ikeda, Saotome, Chiba, Abe and Ueshiba's great grandson.
For the present sincere searchers; I continue put myself out there, unafraid and totally transparent; to demonstrate IP/ aiki (not waza) to those from the aiki arts to modern combatives.
You?
Well, I think we all get it.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-16-2009 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:23 PM   #45
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Re: Blending with the attack.

I just cut short some congratulatory comments as well as some cautions for sounding so egotistical. Neither is my intent.
Look, at what point can we just judge events as they are unfolding. Unabashedly and open.
Here's the truth of it:

"The aiki arts are not doing so well when the teachers in it are meeting those with real aiki."

Everyone is so concerned with politics and hiding their true opinions that it is ridiculously hard to talk plainly! I truly cannot believe some of the stories I am being told lately about MA politics. And MOST of those all revolve around sensei and student "egos" and a sense of ownership, and defense over what they do. Sheesh!

What is so bruising about losing or winning? They are both the same; learning experiences. Haven't you guys ever really fought? There's no ego to it. It's a game of physical chess. Win or lose you come back tomorrow and try again; win or lose.
What I continue to discuss is flat, open, and as honest as the sun shining on a smudge. The sun shines equally. There is no win, no loss and all is revealed. That some senior teachers cannot stand in the face of it while others seem to welcome it should be openly revealed. I imagine those who welcome the challenge and seek growth are just those who's interests lie "outside" the political realm and are the future of the arts.
I've never been able to understand fear of testing, and of research and growth. The challenge...IS the fun.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:28 PM   #46
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Dan, I am always up for the challenge of testing!

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Old 10-16-2009, 12:47 PM   #47
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Re: Blending with the attack.

I know Kevin
Make no mistake, as is so evident by the hundreds going out to check out Mike, Ark, Me and others there are plenty of die hard researchers going for excellence and not rank. I am counting on it to produce the grass roots change that will throw off the shackles; the Japanese training method, that have failed so many of us and allow us to stand on our own.

At what point do we stop looking for the Japanese face to validate a concept that a) is more widely taught outside of Japan then in; while b) many make a living on teaching westerners and living here, while not even apologizing for not understanding "how" to teach westerners.
I would love nothing better than to tell them "No thank you. Stay home, we've got it covered."
When the sun shines equally on their teaching "skills" they really don't do all that well. There are any number of venues that prove that to be true from Judo to Koryu to MMA, many times we can do better.

We should just turn inward and research and teach ourselves. Then welcome them back in ten years and make them prove their worth as teachers in aiki; through comparative demonstrations and skills and then see who is good, great and just how many Japanese "Shihan" wouldn't even get a second look. I can think of any number of them I would walk up to and say "Johnny you need to go home! More practice for you."

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-16-2009 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 10-16-2009, 01:08 PM   #48
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Sounds good to me Dan. I crossed this bridge back in 2004 actually and have been doing the "MMA" thing ever since. MMA as defined in the budo sense, not the limited focused "sport" sense.

To be honest so far, I have not felt like I wasted my time much in meeting anyone.

Gonna see Toby Threadgill here in about 3 hours, so looking forward to working with him some over the next day and a half!

Wonder what he'd think if I asked him to not touch me until we had a long discussion about the scientific proof of what he is doing.

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Old 10-16-2009, 02:53 PM   #49
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Ha! I won't even try to imagine what he'd say...much less do...he's known to travel with sharp pointy objects.
B,
R (if you tell him I said that I'll ask for scientific proof)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-16-2009, 04:05 PM   #50
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You want to get real, Eric? Okay. I'll be frank, ... Kevin is a friend of mine, Kevin has watched me toss around some of Ledyard and Chiba, and Beirries men with impunity. "His" comments were that the current state of aikido is appalling and that aikido buy and large; has missed it, doesn't have aiki, and I quote. "they wouldn't know aiki if it jumped up and bit em in the ass." ...As for Bill, I have tossed Bill around with impunity. Unlike you he not only did not mind he wanted to test me to the max with everything he had. I don't think you deserve to carry his shoes. ... Using Kevin was a smart choice, thank you, Eric. Maybe also not without merit is that three of the examples you chose to cite have pursued aiki outside of aikido. Good on yer Eric.
Thanks for proving my point.
To sum Dan's argument up: "I can beat up X; therefore Y must be a nancy-boy." and "I can beat up Y's boy X; therefore Y is a nancy-boy." Actually, X might be a poor student, or Y may be a poor teacher. But it says nothing about the objective ability of Y.

Sometimes, I swear the whole thing seems as pointless and counterproductive as Rinzai v. Soto (Rinzai proclaimed winning the refereed decision -- which Soto proclaimed was fundamentally meaningless, and anyway, they had more venues ).

You are by all accounts immensely talented and well-reputed. You still don't get it -- and you are not that dumb. One, the point of my exercise is not a demand of scientific proof; and two, you, in riposte, simply do not understand the concept of "proof." Proof is objective evidence from which a reasonable conclusion may directly be drawn, not suppositions from asserted implications of statements no one has made or will vouch for. "Inference" is the word for the latter, and you have layered several of those on top of one another as "proof" of nothing other than your opinion drawn from those inferences YOU have made. No one else can objectively evaluate YOUR inferences -- they need the evidence you drew your inferences from.

As it happens I have, rather pointedly, not "used Kevin" nor did he "use" me, nor do you have the slightest clue what the heck was going on when he came down our way. I did not raise the issue, but -- having met him, I have a decent opinion of his character.

@ Kevin -- I accept the accounts of Dan's ability -- that is not and has never been the issue -- you clearly set out the range of the levels of effort among others. What I am tired of is the substitution (by many persons) of steaming piles of ad hominem innuendo in place of constructive and evidence-based arguments that might illustrate specific points of contention and difference of approach in a written forum intended to "disseminate aikido information" -- you know -- in the header of this webpage. The latter approach has the possibility of useful discussion HERE -- not in whatever mixmaster demonstration of my presumed sorely lacking physical qualities Dan might show. If you come again we'll make time to address some of those things and compare notes -- which I believe and hope we are in agreement we did not and could not reasonably do in any concerted way under the circumstances of your short-fused visit. I appreciate your affirmative contact and pointed willingness NOT to be used in such a way.

@ Dan -- There are many martial powers -- and physical power is not even close to the most important one. Patience, close observation, critical judgment, loyalty, honor, selflessness, and willingness to engage are among them. Ask Kevin. Objectively speaking, if, between the three of us, we went to war, I'd bet on Kevin.

I want to see that arguments made (and you are making several) are properly supported. For this reason, I keep asking for that kind of evidence and argument, and will keep asking every time the subject comes up. It is the purpose of these pages, after all, not to end arguments but to develop the information from which those arguments flow -- and hopefully -- the arguments might further develop.

You criticize me for being unwilling to engage. You really don't know me -- and it is a fundamental error of martial ability to willfully attack or provoke someone you do not know based on suppositions. Even so, and fair enough, any failure to engage is not lack of will. I cannot help the immense frustration I evidently provoke at being unavailable for your "testing." I feel no personal need to indulge it, but even so. Howard pulled out of a proposed seminar here I had tried to work out last year, apparently on his shihan's general directive to cease such outside seminars. Politics? I have no idea, nor is it any of my business why his shihan runs his shop as he does. Howard's a mensch for being respectful of such concerns in my book. If you think there are "politics" involved in the aikido in the piney-woods of the Gulf Coast -- it is a coast on some other planet.

What those of us in the boondocks with many more important obligations choose to do with the time we are not training on the schedule we already have, I make no apologies for. I don't have to justify it. I just choose to develop careful ideas derived from my training and observation. They require no travel to work out and to actively practice. So sue me.

But don't please don't use me as an excuse to avoid the request that such a factual discussion of direct evidence of critical ability take place here, when the abilities of others are addressed critically.

If you are right ( and I accept there is legitimate improvement in some quadrants to be had) -- then please speak your piece. Don't assume from stacked inferences, which prove nothing other than what you infer. Give examples. With names. Preferably, with video.


Last edited by Erick Mead : 10-16-2009 at 04:08 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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