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Old 08-19-2007, 08:55 AM   #26
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

A bit confused. Do you just crash/play/throw down MMA/BJJ every so often, or do you dedicate 2-4 times a week on the mat for a committed period of time? I also meddled and sparred with friends during the time when I did Aikido exclusively, but everything changed once I committed to an MMA school and really started studying the aspects.
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Old 08-19-2007, 09:35 AM   #27
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Just to settle your confusion, these days I try to do formal BJJ once a week (mixing up gi vs. no-gi) and then seminars whenever possible. I work out with grapplers from wrestling, judo and sambo whenever possible. I have a base in boxing, judo, wrestling, sports karate (blecch) and humorous attempts at kickboxing (not my game, I know it, but still think there's benefit to training it). I try to brush up on these with other practitioners whenever possible, but am primarly committed with my dojo's aikido program (as my long term budo study).

I started training in martial sports when I was 5 (judo) and continued in one form (judo - wrestling - judo - wrestling - karate - wrestling) or another through college. I am now 32. I have different training goals than martial sports, but still recognize the skills they build and polish. I don't claim expertise in any of them, but still like to go play with people that are.

When I spar with people in specific martial sports, I usually already have some sort of a base in a version of their sport (if not their sport). So, depending on the sparring paradigm, I'm not going to backpedal from a clinch or takedown and don't mind trading hands and feet. In other words, I'll shin kick, jab, hook, bodylock, shoot, submit with the next guy. I'm not gonna try to tenkan, spin away from trouble or panic when things don't look like aikido.

Because each sport trains towards certain goals (even different gyms within the same sports - don't believe me? Go visit three different non-affilitated BJJ schools in one week), the degree with which they're congruent with how I train overall can sometimes throw me off. But it goes back to what Don Magee said (and I've already stolen this as a saying), when you're training a specific drill (no matter the art/style/sport), you work on the goals of that specific drill, regardless of what you "think" you know.

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Old 08-19-2007, 06:16 PM   #28
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Very interesting thread and love to here people developing there marital arts skills. Interesting youtube clip. The Aikidoist looked pretty winded and I wonder if he would really be a match to a trained BJJ fighter of higher skills. Really goes to show that you can't rely on any one martial art.

Often times we read so much philosophy about Aikido that the realities of self defense are garbled in the intellectual writings of some Aikidoist. I agree with Don Magee and Budd Yuhasz. Great to here people speaking about the realities of marital arts.
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Old 08-19-2007, 09:12 PM   #29
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
On a related note, here's an interesting video of a BJJ guy sparring with an Aikido guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ny3yZitAFU
I suppose I'm a day late and a dollar short...

Where I've trained, an aikido black belt tends to be someone with at least 5-6 years of training time. Someone with 5-6 years of training time in bjj wouldn't be a white belt, mostly likely blue/purple. To me it would be more accurate to show two people with similar training times to draw any conclusions.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-19-2007, 09:57 PM   #30
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

BJJ and Aikido belts are a bit different. I don't believe one has to be a BJJ black belt to play with an Aikido black belt. Kind of how many top MMA guys are BJJ white belts, and have have known to have beaten many high belt BJJ guys.
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Old 08-19-2007, 10:06 PM   #31
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

yeah but this guy looked to be a white white belt. *maybe* 1 stripe....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-20-2007, 06:57 AM   #32
salim
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

The Aikido guy eye gouged the BJJ guy at the end. The Aikido guy was pretty winded and the BJJ guy allowed him to regain himself. If the BJJ guy was a black belt the story may have been completely different. Also I noticed the methods of atemi waza were used a lot by the Aikidoist.
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Old 08-20-2007, 12:38 PM   #33
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
BJJ guy was a black belt the story may have been completely different..
*may* have? Based on that video if the bjj guy had been one of my three stripe white belts it would have been completely different...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-20-2007, 12:52 PM   #34
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

That's I'm trying to say.
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Old 08-20-2007, 12:56 PM   #35
salim
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Perhaps they give out black belts in Aikido like giving candy to a child.
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Old 08-20-2007, 01:09 PM   #36
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

BJJ black belts are few and between in contrast to Aikido. Try to search up some local BJJ black belts in your city/town. Harder yet, try finding some that are actually capable of awarding belts.
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Old 08-20-2007, 01:21 PM   #37
Aristeia
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

why would a bjj bb not be able to award at least blue and purple?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-20-2007, 01:26 PM   #38
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Perhaps they give out black belts in Aikido like giving candy to a child.
would be nice...my sempai (1st kyu) has been at it 10 years I believe...our 2nd kyus have been at it around 7 years I would say...so please, oh please start handing out those candy black belts - or Im switching!

Peace

dAlen
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Old 08-20-2007, 01:33 PM   #39
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
why would a bjj bb not be able to award at least blue and purple?
Meant black belts. My mistake.
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Old 08-20-2007, 02:15 PM   #40
Bill Brownlow
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Mike Logan wrote: View Post
Hi folks!

... although I'm sure the philosophical approaches of both vary more by club than anything else....
Can't agree more. The club where I have been training BJJ for the past 8 years has a very favorable look on Aikido. The stand up techniques we learn to apply for self defense are often ikkio, nikkio, sankyo or kote-gaeshi (sorry if mangled the spelling). My instructor doesn't often use Aikido lingo, but teaches it as "defense against a one handed lapel grab, variation #1, and variation #2 " This is how I learned it.

A few years ago, my work scheduled changed for a few months and I couldn't train with him regularly, I joined an Aikido dojo for that time and was like, "Cool, I kind of know this". I say kind of because our stand up classes were maybe once a month and there is a certain amount of use it or lose it with my muscle memory.

After getting back to my regular club and talking to my instructor about it he told me that "Yeah, you can call it Aikido if you like. I prefer to call it Jiu Jitsu. Wrestling, Boxing, Karate, call it whatever you want, but to me they are all different sections of the same sphere of movement I like to call Jiu Jitsu." He told me another time, "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, just takes Aikido and puts it on the floor. Its the same concepts of spherical movement, blending and redirecting our opponent. In bjj we just use our backs and hips instead of our feet and hips to generate the movement. (think lying down vs standing up) He holds shodan in aikido and judo, nidan in tang soo do and has many years in freestyle/folkstyle wrestling, thai boxing and escrima apart from his bjj training.

Personally, I like his philosophy. Call it what you want its all jiu jitsu to me.

Quote:
Mike Logan wrote: View Post
...Aikido is billed as a generally useless martial art for self defense (other folk's words - not mine) while BJJ and similar styles get the media blitz ....
First see above about self defense per se.

When sparring 1 on 1 my instructor will usually use the classic MMA (thai box/bjj). As soon as another person enters the mix its an aikido game.

Thanks for reading.
Bill
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Old 08-20-2007, 02:19 PM   #41
Budd
 
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Nice post, Bill, your perspective and mileage are appreciated.

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Old 08-20-2007, 02:20 PM   #42
Bill Brownlow
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Mike Logan wrote: View Post
Hi folks!

... although I'm sure the philosophical approaches of both vary more by club than anything else....
Can't agree more. The club where I have been training BJJ for the past 8 years has a very favorable look on Aikido. The stand up techniques we learn to apply for self defense are often ikkio, nikkio, sankyo or kote-gaeshi (sorry if mangled the spelling). My instructor doesn't often use Aikido lingo, but teaches it as "defense against a one handed lapel grab, variation #1, and variation #2 " This is how I learned it.

A few years ago, my work scheduled changed for a few months and I couldn't train with him regularly, I joined an Aikido dojo for that time and was like, "Cool, I kind of know this". I say kind of because our stand up classes were maybe once a month and there is a certain amount of use it or lose it with my muscle memory.

After getting back to my regular club and talking to my instructor about it he told me that "Yeah, you can call it Aikido if you like. I prefer to call it Jiu Jitsu. Wrestling, Boxing, Karate, call it whatever you want, but to me they are all different sections of the same sphere of movement I like to call Jiu Jitsu." He told me another time, "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, just takes Aikido and puts it on the floor. Its the same concepts of spherical movement, blending and redirecting our opponent. In bjj we just use our backs and hips instead of our feet and hips to generate the movement. (think lying down vs standing up) He holds shodan in aikido and judo, nidan in tang soo do and has many years in freestyle/folkstyle wrestling, thai boxing and escrima apart from his bjj training.

Personally, I like his philosophy. Call it what you want its all jiu jitsu to me.

Quote:
Mike Logan wrote: View Post
...Aikido is billed as a generally useless martial art for self defense (other folk's words - not mine) while BJJ and similar styles get the media blitz ....
First see above about self defense.

To address uselessness, When sparring 1 on 1 my instructor will almost always use the classic MMA (thai box/bjj). As soon as another person enters the mix its an aikido game. The reason being not that Aikido is useless for handling 1 on 1, but Aikido becomes the only option (in his opinion) for handling more than 1.

Thanks for reading.
Bill
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Old 08-20-2007, 02:26 PM   #43
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

I think the white belt in that video was poor quality even for a white belt. I'd put him at the under 1 month mark in skill. He made very classical mistakes and had no confidence. He seemed to have no knowledge of take downs in any regards (bjj or otherwise) and for some unknown reason wanted to pull the aikido guy down on top of him.

He was not prepared for a bjj tournament, let alone a challenge match.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-20-2007, 02:38 PM   #44
salim
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
would be nice...my sempai (1st kyu) has been at it 10 years I believe...our 2nd kyus have been at it around 7 years I would say...so please, oh please start handing out those candy black belts - or Im switching!

Peace

dAlen
Come to North Carolina and see all the pretty black belts. Most have no clue about self defense, there tasebaki and tenkan looks like there dancing!
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Old 08-20-2007, 03:05 PM   #45
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

I really didn't see much in the video to impress me on either side.

Who knows how foolish I'd look though...

B,
R

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Old 08-21-2007, 07:27 AM   #46
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I think the white belt in that video was poor quality even for a white belt. I'd put him at the under 1 month mark in skill. He made very classical mistakes and had no confidence. He seemed to have no knowledge of take downs in any regards (bjj or otherwise) and for some unknown reason wanted to pull the aikido guy down on top of him.

He was not prepared for a bjj tournament, let alone a challenge match.
I didn't watch the whole thing because I thought it was boring and I'm not going to comment on the white belt's level of experience (or the black belt's), but I find it hard to believe that you have never seen people "pulling guard" like that. It is a very common white belt takedown, at the last tournament I was at I saw some blue belts doing it rather successfully (of course they gave up the 2pts for takedown).

The "unknown reason" to pull the guy down on top of him is demonstrated at about 00:56 into the video. The camera angle is not good but he clearly has the guy in his guard and works an armbar - unsuccessfully, but thats what was going on.
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Old 08-21-2007, 07:48 AM   #47
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Yikes...Don I'm sure understands what "pulling guard" is...

I think he is questioning the logic of using that in that situation. Which I would question too...

Against a competant aikidoka, I'd be working judo sweeps and wrestling shots, NOT trying to pull guard clumsily.

Best,
Ron

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Old 08-21-2007, 08:12 AM   #48
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

OMG!!!!!!
I watched the video again and realized I know this guy!!!!!! I can't believe I missed my club's patch on his back!

He trains at my bjj club when he is in town (rarely). He's actually here this week. I'm going to have to pick on him about it.

He's a large guy, and from what I seen last night at practice (first time he's been here in months) he still tries strength over technique. He's also young and very scared of hand and wrist locks. One night at my house my aikido instructor wanted to show a quick lock and he asked to use him. He only touched his hand and the kid about jumped though the roof.

He's a nice guy though. I really believe he probably did not even realize that he was in a challenge match and thought he was in a bjj match. I think he learned a valuable lesson in that video. Ask about the rules before you accept cross style challenge matches. It's hard for him because he really has no training except for when he is in South Bend, IN and can train with us.

After reading the comments. I'm kinda embarrassed at how everyone makes it seem like the aikido guy was a bad guy though. He was just playing his game by his rules. Nothing wrong with that. Personally the moment he hit me or went for a dirty technique. My game would of changed and I would of done the same. I can't fault him for playing his game though. It did demonstrate that being mentally prepared to keep and play your game will allow you control another fighter.

But I can't claim the white belt was unprepared. He has at least 4-6 solid months of bjj. Which I always claim is enough to take down and submit most people. He has also on a few occasions trained in judo with us on saturdays. I guess I can only point to a lack of consistent training with partners more skilled them him has created some large holes in his game. I'm still going to pick on him for getting beaten up while trying to pull the sloppiest guard I've seen in a while.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:31 AM   #49
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Yikes...Don I'm sure understands what "pulling guard" is...

I think he is questioning the logic of using that in that situation. Which I would question too...

Against a competant aikidoka, I'd be working judo sweeps and wrestling shots, NOT trying to pull guard clumsily.

Best,
Ron
I certainly meant no disrespect to Don, but re-reading my post I can see how it may have come off preachy. I did not have that intention.

I was trying to impress that if you only have a hammer in your toolbox, everything looks like a nail. Depending on the white belt's level and previous grappling/martial arts exp, that may be the only way to take down an opponent that he knows. As a white belt, all he knows is submissions from the ground.

I would agree with you as well that trying to pull guard without setting up a good opening for it is a very BAD idea, and yes from what little I saw it was clumsy.
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:59 AM   #50
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Bill Brownlow wrote: View Post
I certainly meant no disrespect to Don, but re-reading my post I can see how it may have come off preachy. I did not have that intention.

I was trying to impress that if you only have a hammer in your toolbox, everything looks like a nail. Depending on the white belt's level and previous grappling/martial arts exp, that may be the only way to take down an opponent that he knows. As a white belt, all he knows is submissions from the ground.

I would agree with you as well that trying to pull guard without setting up a good opening for it is a very BAD idea, and yes from what little I saw it was clumsy.
That's why I didn't call it pulling guard. Pulling guard like a throw requires you break the balance first. Otherwise you are just trying to pull the guy down on top of you, or hugging a guy standing up with your legs wrapped around him.

- Don
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