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Old 08-14-2007, 12:31 AM   #26
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
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Re: no tax law in america?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote:
Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:
Do you truly believe that nothing great can be accomplished without taxes?
I never even suggested that.
Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote:
It [taxation] is an obligation in a society that wishes to accomplish anything on greater than an individual basis to find a way to pay for it.
I don't mean to nit pick, just showing you why I asked the question.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote:
I think we can agree on that.. but there are still some challenging issues. It's easy to simplify things with a statement like you made, because it's very difficult to disagree with it.. in fact, I cannot disagree with it.

However, I am willing to take away someone's freedom based on their behavior. Is that so different? We agreed to that as a society (of interacting individuals).

Most taxes are passed by a 2/3 majority of votes. Is that really force or threat of force?
Tarik,

Laws are force, and using the threat of force is government's normal mode of operation. What does the IRS do if you don't pay your taxes? That is the threat of force. The better we understand where this force is derived from the more appropriately we can direct it.

You are correct. A society could set up their government and use it any way that they agree upon. They could, for instance, agree that 51% of the people could vote to force the other 49% to pay taxes that they would rather not pay. They could agree that a 67% majority vote could enslave a certain segment of their society. They could agree that 90% of the population could vote to put the other 10% to death. This is the inherent danger of a democracy, and precisely the reason that the US was not intended to be a democracy.

You must have a foundation for your beliefs. For me, it's Natural Law. That concept is too mystical for some, but it is the only system that holds up to reason and inquiry. It is also the foundation on which America was built; sadly so many of us have forgotten or never learned that. I believe that the closer a society's laws approximate Natural Law the more peaceful and prosperous it will be.

Human Nature requires social order for our happiness. The basis of social order is justice and the fundamental aspects of justice are respect for person and property. From Natural Law comes Natural Rights. One of which is the right to self-defense, this is the only situation in which force is appropriate. Therefore, the only time it is moral to take away someone's freedom is when they have aggressed against you first, in other words, they were attempting to take away your freedom.

The proper domain of the law is to protect life, liberty, and property.

I get the feeling that we could have a long discussion on this topic. Luckly, I recently learned about a short video that elegantly presents these ideas in only eight minutes. Everyone should watch it.

http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 08-15-2007, 12:52 AM   #27
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 567
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Re: no tax law in america?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I don't mean to nit pick, just showing you why I asked the question.
It does appear to be inconsistent, doesn't it? My mistake.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
You must have a foundation for your beliefs. For me, it's Natural Law. That concept is too mystical for some, but it is the only system that holds up to reason and inquiry.
For you. While it has an impressive line of reasoning and inquiry, it's fatally flawed to me because one cannot question it's basic premise upon which the rest of the reasoning and inquiry is based upon.

That said, it provides an interesting approach, but not one that seems likely to have a any realistic impact on the modern day. Perhaps, if as some believe, revolution is truly on the horizon, the pain of this type of overhaul could be born, but I doubt the fortitude of the country to seriously consider more than a few good ideas offered by the philosophy.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
The proper domain of the law is to protect life, liberty, and property.
Sadly no society has ever existed wherein law restricted itself to these minimum standards.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I get the feeling that we could have a long discussion on this topic.
I suspect an enjoyable one, actually, however I confess to not having the time to go into detail. I do find Natural Law fascinating and interesting, but with my busy life, I have to pick and choose my philosophical discussions.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:28 PM   #28
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 429
United_States
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Re: no tax law in america?

interestingly enough 1/3 of all filers don't pay any income taxes or pay negative amounts of tax.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/1410.html
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