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Old 02-06-2007, 10:22 AM   #26
DonMagee
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Re: This aint UFC!

My point is I was working within the rules and allowing them to work outside of the rules.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 02-06-2007, 11:14 AM   #27
Cyrijl
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Re: This aint UFC!

I didn't know how to respond as to not offend anyone. But the OP is ridiculous.
#1 - You can't 'Go UFC'.
#2 - Typically a groin grab requires you to lower your hand(s) which would leave you open to a pretty gnarly hit to the head. At any rate, any kickboxer worth anything defends his groin. Muay Thai has straight kicks to the groin. That is why in training you wear protective gear. You train not to get hit, but you eventually do. And it is not usually a fight ender.
#3 - I have not yet in my encounters found an aikido dojo where anyone has enough aikido skills to fend off a decent attack. The dojo near me are too traditional to let me come and test them. They may be fine schools but their aikido was too formal.
#4 - All of this has been said before and is quite silly. If you like aikido and think it develops what you are looking for, you do not need to try to justify it.

Last edited by Cyrijl : 02-06-2007 at 11:18 AM.

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Old 02-06-2007, 11:38 AM   #28
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: This aint UFC!

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote:
#3 - I have not yet in my encounters found an aikido dojo where anyone has enough aikido skills to fend off a decent attack.
I'm assuming you didn't let them use a jo or bokken.
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Old 02-06-2007, 11:47 AM   #29
Cyrijl
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Re: This aint UFC!

actually...if i got to bring a weapon i would. I would go jo for jo bokken for bokken. If anything I think it would work against them.

It is not that I think aikido would not work. I think it does. But I have not seen a dojo here that trains in such a way as to make their aikido combat effective...(I don't want hippie answers about love and aikido empowering their lives please) What i find is schools charging $90-100 to stroke my ego and make me think I am uber-deadly.

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Old 02-06-2007, 12:10 PM   #30
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: This aint UFC!

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote:
actually...if i got to bring a weapon i would. I would go jo for jo bokken for bokken. If anything I think it would work against them.

It is not that I think aikido would not work. I think it does. But I have not seen a dojo here that trains in such a way as to make their aikido combat effective...(I don't want hippie answers about love and aikido empowering their lives please) What i find is schools charging $90-100 to stroke my ego and make me think I am uber-deadly.
As a "hippie" I resemble that statement!
I know what you mean though. If I visited a dojo that offered to make me "uber-deadly" at any price, I would continue looking.
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Old 02-06-2007, 12:14 PM   #31
Cyrijl
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Re: This aint UFC!

Oh, the stories i could tell you in my brief aikido training

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Old 02-06-2007, 12:23 PM   #32
Avery Jenkins
 
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Re: This aint UFC!

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote:
Oh, the stories i could tell you in my brief aikido training
So what is your current art?
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Old 02-06-2007, 12:25 PM   #33
Cyrijl
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Re: This aint UFC!

I mainly do just judo right now. I am recovering from some injuries. Next month I am probably going to go back to bjj/muay thai a little bit.

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Old 02-06-2007, 01:18 PM   #34
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: This aint UFC!

Ahhh this is getting close to openning up that thread we all love.....you know the one....aikido doesn't work in a real fight! Come on...you know you want it!

Seriously...good comments from all. I usually have something to add to this thread, but not much as it is well covered I think.

Except for this....we have rules in aikido, if we did not, then it would be a disorganized chaos that would not work. Our rules limit us to isolating parameters and controlling the conditions that allow us to train the principles of aikido. Even in randori, we typically have some sort of rules that we agree to.
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Old 02-06-2007, 01:42 PM   #35
DonMagee
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Re: This aint UFC!

LOL, the next time I'm in a martial arts class and I'm told the best part about their art is that there are no rules, i'm going to poke them in the eye!

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 02-06-2007, 02:03 PM   #36
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: This aint UFC!

A couple of my guys last week asked me about eye pokes, groin grabs etc....questioining how BJJ or grappling dealt with them.

I said, okay...but I get to do them too and I get to do other things. Once the stakes went up and the rules changed...they had a different opinion concerning what grappling skills bring to the table.

Remember, when all else is equal....you need something to turn the tables in your favor. Practicing grappling gives you the advantage when there are "dirty rules".
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Old 02-06-2007, 02:28 PM   #37
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Re: This aint UFC!

Of course you are right. We all train under various sets of self imposed rules. Those are rules of the dojo or gym that we train in and are certainly necessary, but I don't see them as rules of aikido. The principles of aikido are of a higher order of nature than the human made "rules" of the dojo. This is my belief and I am sorry that this thread has focused on the dead horse issue that it has. Like I said before, I blame the response on the title. My fault.
I do not enjoy debating the "street effectiveness" of any martial art. I have played in several throughout the years and have enjoyed all of them. I just happen to have most enjoyed aikido. I really think most of that has to do with my sensei. After experiencing his aikido I simply was uninterested in anything else.
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Old 02-06-2007, 03:06 PM   #38
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Re: This aint UFC!

I understand your not wanting to debate the whole street fighting issue. I don't like it too much either to be honest.

however, can you explain this a little more:

Quote:
The principles of aikido are of a higher order of nature than the human made "rules" of the dojo.
I am not sure I follow you on this one. Principles of aikido are principles defined or labeled by humans, the rules we put in the dojo are there to encourage or enhance the training of these principles, so I see them as mutually dependent and coordinated.

I am currently reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence. A passage in this book has peaked my interest in such definitions.

The author discusses and debates whether gravity actually exsisted before Newton defined it. It is hard to explain, you kinda have to read the book to get into the whole "zen of th๋ issue".

I suppose you could equate this to was the world round when everyone thought it was flat. I'd say it was flat to those who defined it that way.

Our perspective of aikido is much the same way. We limit it by our perception, definition, or experience of the art. So therefore the principles are defined by the human made rules and simply cannot be of a higher order outside of that experience.

O'sensei may have experienced it on a higher level that you or I, but we are limited by our own experiences.

This is not to say that the potential is not there to expand our understanding.

However, I think it to not be a trival thing to point out that we are prisoners of our own paradigms and experiences.

rules are rules to me, it is important to recognize them, recognize that all of them are self imposed....by humans and the limit of our experience.

The void imposes nothing to include principles, or order at a higher level. It simply just "IS".
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Old 02-06-2007, 03:08 PM   #39
Dieter Haffner
 
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Re: This aint UFC!

Something I thought of reading the original post.

I was having a barbeque with some of my dojo friends. Near the end, and after quiet a few drinks, the hands got a bit loose and some started to test their skills. I remained seated, enjoying the goofiness.
Until suddenly one of them grabbed me from behind in what you might call a choke hold. He asked me what I would do in such a situation. Instead of going for the groin, which was not an option because he was standing behind the chair, I simply drooled on his arm. He immediately let go of the choke hold.

Moral of the story: always make sure you have had enough to drink. So that you can produce enough saliva when you are on "the street".

BTW: Isn't there someone on the forums that says that aikido was developed from observing children? I am starting to think he is right. Since babies are the champions in drooling.

PS: I am still trying to figure out a way to apply this fine technique on people with long sleeves. So any help is welcome.
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Old 02-06-2007, 03:13 PM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Re: This aint UFC!

Thanks, Dieter, you just made my day a little brighter...or wetter...oh..that didn't sound right...or something...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 02-06-2007, 04:38 PM   #41
Ellis Amdur
 
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Regarding pressure points and the like.

One point worth considering. Regarding groin attacks and other such moves. A friend of mine - maybe 170 lbs., doing bjj with a rather well-known figure of "catch wrestling" who goes about 260+. My friend, very skilled, started to get the wrestler in a choke hold (can't remember the configuration), and the latter began kneeling on the shin of my friend, while pulling up on his ankle, as if to break the leg like a green stick. My friend, aware of how strong a healthy bone is, continued working for the choke as the wrestler hauled on his leg with all his power, began glancing at him with astonishment as his go-to move wasn't going anywhere. Finally, the choke on, he tapped out. My friend had a crescent shaped divot in his shin that didn't go away for days, and he said that the pain of the blood rushing into the compressed area was possibly the worst of his life. When asked why he continued the choke, he replied, "It's only pain."

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Old 02-06-2007, 05:13 PM   #42
Keith R Lee
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Re: Regarding pressure points and the like.

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
When asked why he continued the choke, he replied, "It's only pain."
Oh man that made me laugh. At my Sambo club (where, surprisingly, we do a lot of leglocks) we always say this exact same thing except we are quoting Bas Rutten from his DVD's/fight commentary. Whenever someone gets a straight ankle lock Bas always says, "It just pain, there is no danger. You should just explode, there is nothing they can do." It looses a lot in text, you really need to hear Bas say it live.

I think many people who have only done non-competitive TMAs tend to vastly underestimate the tenacity of a motivated individual in a physical altercation. People can really absorb some punishment if their desire to overcome is strong. I think that's one advantage combat sports have, they place people in an environment that most closely models a "live" physical altercation. Which in turn allows each person to discover their own personal threshold. A person in combat sports can discover how much punishment they can take, and then progressively increase the amount they can take as they learn. In the same way, they soon discover what the average amount of punishment their partners can take. Which brings me back to my first point; when people compete, they get really motivated and are able to take a lot of abuse.

Keith Lee
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Old 02-06-2007, 05:32 PM   #43
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: This aint UFC!

However, a properly executed blood choke, works every time. I don't care who you are, or how much pain you can withstand, your brain needs blood to function.

Did anyone catch the last fight of UFC 67. I was amazed at the leg bar the guy withstood to win the match. Had only like 20 sec to go and the guy had a dead on knee bar on him. Never tapped, but I cringed in pain at watching it. I wonder how messed up his knee is.
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Old 02-06-2007, 06:05 PM   #44
Keith R Lee
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Re: This aint UFC!

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
However, a properly executed blood choke, works every time. I don't care who you are, or how much pain you can withstand, your brain needs blood to function.

Did anyone catch the last fight of UFC 67. I was amazed at the leg bar the guy withstood to win the match. Had only like 20 sec to go and the guy had a dead on knee bar on him. Never tapped, but I cringed in pain at watching it. I wonder how messed up his knee is.
Oh yeah, that was rough. I was with Rogan on that one, I found it hard to watch. I was sure that Edgar's knee was going to pop, especially when Griffin sled it behind his shoulder. But, it was too low and Edgar had that tenacity I was talking about earlier.

It was the fight of the night for sure. Very exciting. Back and forth from stand-up to ground work, good movement and positioning, good sub attempts and smooth transitions...

Keith Lee
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Old 02-06-2007, 06:51 PM   #45
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Re: This aint UFC!

I like Yamada sensei's point of view on competition in aikido.
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Old 02-06-2007, 07:57 PM   #46
DonMagee
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Re: Regarding pressure points and the like.

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
Oh man that made me laugh. At my Sambo club (where, surprisingly, we do a lot of leglocks) we always say this exact same thing except we are quoting Bas Rutten from his DVD's/fight commentary. Whenever someone gets a straight ankle lock Bas always says, "It just pain, there is no danger. You should just explode, there is nothing they can do." It looses a lot in text, you really need to hear Bas say it live.

I think many people who have only done non-competitive TMAs tend to vastly underestimate the tenacity of a motivated individual in a physical altercation. People can really absorb some punishment if their desire to overcome is strong. I think that's one advantage combat sports have, they place people in an environment that most closely models a "live" physical altercation. Which in turn allows each person to discover their own personal threshold. A person in combat sports can discover how much punishment they can take, and then progressively increase the amount they can take as they learn. In the same way, they soon discover what the average amount of punishment their partners can take. Which brings me back to my first point; when people compete, they get really motivated and are able to take a lot of abuse.
I've actually made the decision that getting my nose broke was acceptable if it ment I was going to be able to keep my position and work the sweep. Once you get past the idea of it hurting, its not so bad.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 02-06-2007, 09:48 PM   #47
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Re: This aint UFC!

Chokes done properly should not expose the groin or soft target to the the chokee. Crappling is not Grappling and vice-versa.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 02-07-2007, 07:41 AM   #48
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Re: This aint UFC!

I think yamada needs a RNC. I am sure he is like a god to some people, but that article is just ridiculous (seems my word of the day). Budo is not 'life or death'. This kind of argument is what we philosophers like to call a 'straw man'. Instead of confronting the issue, you set up a false argument that you can easily knock down.

I can fight reasonably well. Probably put a whoppin' on an average guy. If I was ever in a physical confrontation from which I could not escape, my response to receiving a punch in the face would not be to kill my aggressor. If combat sports has taught me anything it is how to use reasonable force in response to an attack.

For Example:

#1 - Kickboxing: I had an opponent and we agreed to go lightly to start. We practiced techniques. He hit me a few good times, I hit him a few good times. Then I got paired up with another guy, we agreed to go lightly to work on new technique. Then he blasts me in the face. (Not very nice). So I used reasonable and controlled force to stop him and end the session. I did not have to kill him

#2 - Judo: I am 205lbs...should be 190 or so. I am a white belt in judo with about a yr and a half of BJJ and submssion grappling going against a 360lbs+ black belt in judo in newaza (ground fighting) randoori. He gets me to tap a couple of times by basically sitting on me. Was my response to kill him? Of course not. I just dug deep into my bjj bag, took his back and got him in a poor man's sankaku (triangle choke).

The notion that budo is life or death is laughable. And that aikido is t3h d3adly is even more so.

I agree that ranks should be taken away. Rank should be used to set up pairings in class and competition, and even there, there is no 1 to 1 correlation.

Yamada:
Quote:
If not, it's the end of the spirit of Budo that the founder of Aikido had in mind.
Is this before or after he got a medal for killing russians with a bayonet?

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Old 02-07-2007, 10:12 AM   #49
Ian Starr
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Re: This aint UFC!

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote:
I think yamada needs a RNC. I am sure he is like a god to some people, but that article is just ridiculous (seems my word of the day). Budo is not 'life or death'. This kind of argument is what we philosophers like to call a 'straw man'. Instead of confronting the issue, you set up a false argument that you can easily knock down.

I can fight reasonably well. Probably put a whoppin' on an average guy. If I was ever in a physical confrontation from which I could not escape, my response to receiving a punch in the face would not be to kill my aggressor. If combat sports has taught me anything it is how to use reasonable force in response to an attack.

For Example:

#1 - Kickboxing: I had an opponent and we agreed to go lightly to start. We practiced techniques. He hit me a few good times, I hit him a few good times. Then I got paired up with another guy, we agreed to go lightly to work on new technique. Then he blasts me in the face. (Not very nice). So I used reasonable and controlled force to stop him and end the session. I did not have to kill him

#2 - Judo: I am 205lbs...should be 190 or so. I am a white belt in judo with about a yr and a half of BJJ and submssion grappling going against a 360lbs+ black belt in judo in newaza (ground fighting) randoori. He gets me to tap a couple of times by basically sitting on me. Was my response to kill him? Of course not. I just dug deep into my bjj bag, took his back and got him in a poor man's sankaku (triangle choke).

The notion that budo is life or death is laughable. And that aikido is t3h d3adly is even more so.

I agree that ranks should be taken away. Rank should be used to set up pairings in class and competition, and even there, there is no 1 to 1 correlation.

Yamada:

Is this before or after he got a medal for killing russians with a bayonet?
To say Budo is not life or death and that the notion is absurd seems ignorant to me at best. Frankly I often don't feel comfortable commenting on the subject as I lack a comprehensive understanding of its' origins and meaning. Though I do feel like I have a basic idea of the concept(s). Maybe you are a history buff or martial arts scholar and know a lot more than I do. There are certainly a few of those folks on this forum.

Even with my limited understanding, for you to liken sparring a few rounds with people to Budo is silly. Of course what you were doing is not life and death. I agree completely. In fact it was not even close to anything resembling life and death. So really Budo, as it is commonly understood and referenced, is a friendly sportive engagement?

Thanks,

Ian
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Old 02-07-2007, 10:44 AM   #50
DaveS
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Re: This aint UFC!

My issue with the Yamada article was that he says that budo is life and death and that therefore budo cannot be sport, but from that gets to the conclusion that there's no room for competition in budo training. But since budo is life and death, it also cannot be safe or predictable, and noone would deny that safety and predictability have a part to play in an aikido dojo. I don't see from Yamada's article why competition can't also have a place in aikido-as-budo training, as long as aikido doesn't become identified with the competition.
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