Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Open Discussions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-18-2007, 03:22 PM   #26
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
[Right after the article saying the documents were never authenticated... i.e., never found to be true.... Nick says]
The REAL story is that the documents that CBS presented for the story could not be authenticated.
Er, if you look at the full Thornburgh report, including the appendices, no testimony showed any of the proffered documents to be real and testimony leaned heavily to the fact that they were bogus. Since the originals were never found, etc., they are bogus until shown different. In case this is not something done in Santa Cruz, Nick... if you offer "proof" which can't be verified it's the same as no proof. It is not the same as "well, it's a question".

But this is why I don't dignify your comments as being credible... you constantly dodge and weave with the truth. We don't argue on the same basis. You're like the pettifogger who constantly tries to dodge and weave with "maybe's" instead of examining the truth. I.e., I don't take you seriously. Live with it, Spin-Boy.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2007, 04:50 PM   #27
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Talking Mikey promises to never...ever...ever...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
But this is why I don't dignify your comments as being credible... you constantly dodge and weave with the truth.
Oh, yeah! But that's right...you're not arguing with me anymore. You announced you'd stop debating me, weeks' ago.

(I forgot.

And apparently: so did you).

Quote:
We don't argue on the same basis.
Ain't that the truth. For one thing, I like to reference my claims.

For another, I don't pretend to have the abilities of a mindreader.

Quote:
You're like the pettifogger who constantly tries to dodge and weave with "maybe's" instead of examining the truth.
I'm like the guy who keeps smashing down your virtual strawmen, while you go on pretending that you're "winning." (much like a certain CinC that you love to so vaunt. Funny, how he's not claiming a "win," anymore.

Eventually, even you'll follow his example.

Just, not publicly, I bet.

THAT, takes courage).

Quote:
I.e., I don't take you seriously. Live with it, Spin-Boy.

Mike
Oh, GOD!!! no, NO!!



Whoah. Big surprise.

But, Mike: "convincing" you is not at all the goal. You don't admit you're wrong. That's a given. And so, it would be pretty naive of me to expect some sort of retraction, wouldn't it?

I just present the facts, and let you fill in the unreferenced heresay, and allegation. It's up to the reader to decide, one way or another.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 02-18-2007 at 04:57 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2007, 05:00 PM   #28
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Mikey promises to never...ever...ever...

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
I just present the facts, and let you fill in the unreferenced heresay, and allegation. It's up to the reader to decide, one way or another.
No, you tried to trivialize the *facts* I presented that the MSM went very liberal in its SBV reporting and the *fact* that CBS tried to present questionable and unsupported documents as negative evidence about Bush, just before an election. Where I think you're going off the deep end, as you do repeatedly, is in thinking that "the reader" is dumb enough to believe your dishonest spin.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2007, 05:11 PM   #29
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Mikey promises to never...ever...ever...

I suppose that part of self-denial involves carefully plugging up your audial sensors with your digital manipulation devices and yelling a continual refrain of "nah nah nah nah!"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
No, you tried to trivialize the *facts* I presented that the MSM went very liberal in its SBV reporting
No, Mike, try as you might to recast it, MSM did not "go very liberal" in its reporting. As I pointed out, it was likely seen as a partisan smear, lacking substance (which, it has largely been proven to be). All you have shown is that SOME ppl thought the MSM acted a little sluggishly.

Oh, the horror, of slipping journalistic standards: that they won't pick up an obvious election-smear tactic and blast it all over the front-page, whenever Rove says boo.

Quote:
and the *fact* that CBS tried to present questionable and unsupported documents as negative evidence about Bush, just before an election.
I guess, in your rush to post, you forgot to read the bit about Greg Palast, presenting this material ONE YEAR BEFORE.

Questionable? Unsupported?

Sure. In Mikey's mind.

Quote:
Where I think you're going off the deep end, as you do repeatedly, is in thinking that "the reader" is dumb enough to believe your dishonest spin.

Mike Sigman
Where I DON'T go off the "deep end," is in imagining or even suggesting for a minute that I can presume WHAT is the reader's beliefs, or perceptions.

Darn it! I want mindreading abilities, too!! How come all the cool, superhero powers all go to the "Cultural Warriors" of the web??
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2007, 08:52 PM   #30
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Mikey promises to never...ever...ever...

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
As I pointed out, it was likely seen as a partisan smear, lacking substance (which, it has largely been proven to be).
Really? Can you give me one fact published in the SBV book that has been disproven, then? Just one. And bear in mind that Kerry has had to officially change his story a number of times. Not to mention that Kerry's book, by Douglas Brinkley, contains quite different accounts than "the official records", which it turns out Kerry probably wrote himself.

But regardless, note once again that you make an assertion that is provably false or at a minimum which you can't sustain....

The problem in your postings and assertions isn't just your sources, ... it's your personal lack of any ethos.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 01:22 AM   #31
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Offline
Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The US reports all infant mortality figures, including deaths of premature infants, infants we try to save that other countries pronounce dead and don't even try to save, etc.
Mike- as a health care worker, this sounds serious to me. Do you have any sources for the claim that the counting for various countries is different? Totally not-politics (as much as it can be) - I just want to know.

-Lorien
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 01:58 AM   #32
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Offline
Re: Mikey promises to never...ever...ever...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Really? Can you give me one fact published in the SBV book that has been disproven, then?
http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html

political, this time - but you can't claim that this is a 'liberally biased' site, because Cheney himself listed it as a site-to-go-to during the last presidential campaign.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 02:52 AM   #33
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 688
Israel
Offline
Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Actually, I think the best proof that overall (taking all sources into account) the media is neither liberal nor conservative is the fact neither of you Mike, Neil is happy with the media.

This Friday I read a very similar argument in an opinion post, about the Israeli Govt. and various groups. Wish I had a English copy, it went something like this:
The Arab Muslims are angry: "Israel doesn't care for their objections about the works near El-Akza(Temple mount), while the Haredi Jews group can change the route of road 6 just because of a few bones".
The Right wing and settlers are angry because: " Israel is willing to do anything to avoid a confrontation with the Muslims over the works near Temple-Mount, but will drive over anyone to evacuate settlements."
The Left wing and poor are angery because: "Israel will pay anything to the settlers and invest infinite amounts of money their, but continuously drives over the poor and doesn't care for their protests".
...
The Haredi Jews are angry because: " Israel is willing to invests loads of money for the poor but will not put the minor additional money required to protect the cemetery road 6 is just about to cover".

I think you can get the idea.


The media is sometimes slightly slanted, but over longer periods of time - its all the same.

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 06:33 PM   #34
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Mikey promises to never...ever...ever...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Really? Can you give me one fact published in the SBV book that has been disproven, then?
When the going gets weak: the weak make some more strawmen.

Now, why should I bother to "give you one (more) fact," when your whole tactic this thread (and in others) has been to pointedly IGNORE every fact that comes up that utterly shuts your argument down (cf, the fact that this is a 40+ year old red herring; that you have absolutely NO DOCUMENTATION that Durante was a poor journalist because he so loved the Soviet experiment; that you so-far have yet to present ONE SINGLE STUDY proving "lib'ral bias," that "Rathergate" in fact was NOT a "false story" as you claimed, and on and on and...). Why bother presenting facts at ALL, when all you'll do is not take me seriously, insult me...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I don't take you seriously. Live with it, Spin-Boy.
...and then round it off with an indirect insult to the reader?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
think you're going off the deep end, as you do repeatedly, is in thinking that "the reader" is dumb enough to believe your dishonest spin.
Why bother responding to an off-topic remark, when there are 10 OTHER on-topic remarks that remain unanswered, by you?

But I see Lorien beat me to slaying another of your weak strawmen...nice work, Lorien!

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html

political, this time - but you can't claim that this is a 'liberally biased' site, because Cheney himself listed it as a site-to-go-to during the last presidential campaign.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
But regardless, note once again that you make an assertion that is provably false or at a minimum which you can't sustain....

The problem in your postings and assertions isn't just your sources, ... it's your personal lack of any ethos.

Mike Sigman
Oh, you mean...ethos: like posting racist remarks, consciously attempting a thread-lock when you are in disagreement (and you & I both know you do this, Mike: you admitted as much, in our private emails); posting "facts" YOU might agree with, but when disproven--you attack the character (including mental health, martial abilities and EVEN...curiously...the place where we live) of the post'er, rather than the post itself.

Is THAT the "ethos" that you're referring? If so, we have polar-opposite definitions of "ethos."

P.S. Love the new look, Jun: but please! Bring back the old smiley's!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 06:55 PM   #35
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote:
The media is sometimes slightly slanted, but over longer periods of time - its all the same.

Amir
Yes to everything but this last comment, Amir. The media is slanted to make the most money. I'm completely sure that if peace marches were big moneymakers for the networks: we'd see an endless barrage of peace marches on CNN.

But they're not: and gov't often uses its influence to push the media in a certain direction. There is an uncomfortable relationship btw the gov't, and the MSM (Tony Snow (former FoxNews correspondent, now WH spokesman), and Roger Ailes (also of FoxNews, before he was a Republican speechwriter). Newshour talkshow hosts and Capital beat reporters often find a certain advantage to getting "chummy" with the Powers That Be. As such, they lob soft questions or don't do the investigative work, when it comes down to it.

But unlike Mike: I am loathe to call this "bias." It's more like favoritism, and it's not predicated upon one party or the other (IMO, there really isn't much difference btw Dem's and Repub's, when all is said and done). It's more about cozying up to power, instead of speaking truth to it.

As the media becomes more monopolized and owned by fewer people, this trend will continue. Detail-oriented local and international news will be further subsumed by generic "McNews."
All the while, ppl like Mike will rail on about "Lib'ral media bias," as the McClatchies and the Murdochs of the US will eat the smaller outlets.

The end result, is you can expect much more of this, in the future:

Amount of programming time in the media, spent on Anna Nicole Smith, 2 days after her death: 37%

Amount spent on the debate over Iraq: 14%

Amount spent on the 2008 White House race: >10%
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 06:57 PM   #36
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Mikey promises to never...ever...ever...

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html

political, this time - but you can't claim that this is a 'liberally biased' site, because Cheney himself listed it as a site-to-go-to during the last presidential campaign.
Good god... that website is so far outdated that it's funny to read. It turns out, for example, that Rassman actually is a Democrat, for instance. The "official records" that Kerry's people ran out at first, were apparently derived from Kerry's own "after-action reports"... and THAT is the main reason why Kerry will still not release his full Naval records, even though he has repeatedly promised to do so.

The problem with the SBV thing, Lorien, is that I actually considered voting for Kerry before I finally voted for Bush. I read his spiel about being a Vet and I was glad to hear it.... UNTIL by chance I saw that all those medals he won were done in a 3 month period. That's an impossibility. And I know, because I was there. The more I looked into it, the more it became clear that Kerry was simply gaming the system. War hero, my butt.

But back to your topic.... FactCheck.org has been accused many times of being gamed by whoever bothers to convince their "factchecker" first. Here's an example of someone saying the same thing:

http://markschmitt.typepad.com/decem...eckorg_st.html

However, what bothers me more than anything is the non-sequitur that a blog/organization is validated by someone mentioning it. If Cheney mentions an article in the New York Times, that doesn't mean that the NYTimes is still not basically a liberal organization. Or if he mentions Rush Limbaugh as a source, that does not mean that Rush Limbaugh is not conservatively biased.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 06:59 PM   #37
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

So Neil.... you make the assertion about the "disproved" SBV's and dodge when asked for one fact. Spin and dodge, Neil.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 07:03 PM   #38
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Tongue Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So Neil.... you make the assertion about the "disproved" SBV's and dodge when asked for one fact. Spin and dodge, Neil.

Mike Sigman
TRANSLATION: I am a very busy man: too busy to read anything but the last sentence of any given post. And, in your case (since you disagree), not even time for that.

I am not interested in responding to your comments. Better to accuse YOU of dodging and weaving...it makes it easier, for MY dodges, and weaves.

Neil's response: NEXT!

(P.S. from Mike (as, I always love to get in the last word): Have I diverted the topic enough, yet? Is it time to go into "Operation Threadlock," or should I try to divert the topic some more?

Oh, decisions, decisions!)

Last edited by Neil Mick : 02-19-2007 at 07:06 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 07:44 PM   #39
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Mike- as a health care worker, this sounds serious to me. Do you have any sources for the claim that the counting for various countries is different? Totally not-politics (as much as it can be) - I just want to know.

-Lorien
Infant Mortality

To a certain degree, Mike is right. But yet again, he distorts the facts to make the US sound as if it's being overcounted.

Quote:
Comparing infant mortality rates
The infant mortality rate correlates very strongly with and is among the best predictors of state failure.[1] IMR is also a useful indicator of a country's level of health or development, and is a component of the physical quality of life index. But the method of calculating IMR often varies widely between countries based on the way they define a live birth. The World Health Organization (WHO) defines a live birth as any born human being who demonstrates independent signs of life, including breathing, voluntary muscle movement, or heartbeat. Many countries, however, including certain European states and Japan, only count as live births cases where an infant breathes at birth, which makes their reported IMR numbers somewhat lower and raises their rates of perinatal mortality. The exclusion of any high-risk infants from the denominator or numerator in reported IMR's can be problematic for comparisons.

A well documented example illustrates this problem. Historically, until the 1990's Russia and the Soviet Union did not count as a live birth or as an infant death extremely premature infants (less than 1,000 g., less than 28 weeks gestational age, or less than 35 cm in length) that were born alive (breathed, had a heartbeat, or exhibited voluntary muscle movement) but failed to survive for at least 7 days.[2] Although such extremely premature infants typically accounted for only about .005 of all live-born children, their exclusion from both the numerator and the denominator in the reported IMR led to an estimated 22-25% lower reported IMR.[3] In some cases, too, perhaps because hospitals or regional health departments were held accountable for lowering the IMR in their catchment area, infant deaths that occurred in the 12th month were "transferred" statistically to the 13th month (i.e., the second year of life), and thus no longer classified as an infant death.[4]

Another challenge to comparability is the practice of counting frail or premature infants who die before the normal due date as miscarriages (spontaneous abortions) or those who die during or immediately after childbirth as stillborn. Therefore, the quality of a country's documentation of perinatal mortality can matter greatly to the accuracy of its infant mortality statistics. This point is reinforced by the demographer Ansley Coale, who finds dubiously high ratios of reported stillbirths to infant deaths in Hong Kong and Japan in the first 24 hours after birth, a pattern that is consistent with the high recorded sex ratios at birth in those countries and suggests not only that many female infants who die in the first 24 hours are misreported as stillbirths rather than infant deaths but also that those countries do not follow WHO recommendations for the reporting of live births and infant deaths. [5]

Another seemingly paradoxical finding is that when countries with poor medical services introduce new medical centers and services, instead of declining the reported IMR's often increase for a time. The main cause of this is that improvement in access to medical care is often accompanied by improvement in the registration of births and deaths. Deaths that might have occurred in a remote or rural area and not been reported to the government might now be reported by the new medical personnel or facilities. Thus, even if the new health services reduce the actual IMR, the reported IMR may increase.

These problems of definition and measurement hamper cross-national comparisons of health statistics. Alternative measures of infant mortality may provide better information but cannot completely compensate for differences among countries in the overall rates of reporting of adverse pregnancy outcomes. For example, very premature births are more likely to be included in birth and mortality statistics in the United States than in several other industrialized countries that have lower infant mortality rates.

Low birthweight is the primary risk factor for infant mortality and most of the decline in neonatal mortality (deaths of infants less than 28 days old) in the United States since 1970 can be attributed to increased rates of survival among low-birthweight newborns. Indeed, comparisons with countries for which data are available suggest that low birthweight newborns have better chances of survival in the United States than elsewhere. The U.S. infant mortality problem arises primarily because of its birthweight distribution; relatively more infants are born at low birthweight in the United States than in most other industrialized countries.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 08:05 PM   #40
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Infant Mortality

To a certain degree, Mike is right. But yet again, he distorts the facts to make the US sound as if it's being overcounted.
What absolute BS, Neil. The counting varies and the US is far more rigorous in the actual counting AND is far more aggressive in attempting to save preemies and at-risk babies. For god's sake, why do you have to put the US down about everything, even when it's doing *better* than other countries? You absolutely HATE the US.... yet you don't have the courage to just leave.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 09:02 PM   #41
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
On the supposed abilities of mindreaders

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
What absolute BS, Neil. The counting varies and the US is far more rigorous in the actual counting AND is far more aggressive in attempting to save preemies and at-risk babies.
Have you got even the smallest shred of credible source to support your claim? Say, against England, France, or Sweden?

Quote:
For god's sake, why do you have to put the US down about everything, even when it's doing *better* than other countries?
For godds' sake, why MUST you be so histrionic?

But I'm puzzled...HOW is a low-ranking in IMD, considered as "doing better?" Oh, never mind...this is so far offtopic that I think I see Antartica, in the distance.

Quote:
You absolutely HATE the US....
You absolutely believe in your ability to read minds, don't you? Gotta say, Mike....your crystal ball needs repair.

You can try to slant my statement as anti-US...but the rest of us know better. The short piece I posted shows that other countries undercount, too, for various reasons. Yet again, here comes Mike, with his latest theory on how "good" the US is to the rest of the world...even on IMD, in the midst of a healthcare crisis in this country...and how "bad" everyone else must be, for even suggesting an alternate theory.

You see discrepancies in IMD across the world, and assume that the US is unfairly ranked.

I see discrepancies in IMD across the world, and assume that the system is inexact.

YOU call my beliefs anti-US, because I do not stand up and sing the national anthem, every time you post.

SOMEone here needs a reality-check.

Quote:
yet you don't have the courage to just leave.

Mike Sigman
And here's where we diverge.

Your ilk...the "culture warriors" of the net...all come down to this directive. Submit, or leave. "If you hate the US so much: why don't you leave?" Funny, how often that is repeated.

I often wonder...what is it about what we say or think, that so scares people of "your ilk?"

People like me, tho, welcome your ilk...because we all know that we're all in this boat, together. I don't want you to move to anywhere, that you don't want.

I'm even happy that you're here, posting...altho I wish that you'd respect Jun's guidelines (stop trying to lock threads where you disagree), and stop posting things that would anger Arabs.

Your silly ideas need an outlet, so that we can all see how little water they truly hold, when held up to the light of day.

Plus, your strawmen make GREAT straightmen!

Have a nice day, Mike: and even tho your continual attempts to censor and lock threads are not welcome...YOU certainly are.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 02-19-2007 at 09:08 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 09:26 PM   #42
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: On the supposed abilities of mindreaders

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Have you got even the smallest shred of credible source to support your claim? Say, against England, France, or Sweden?
Actually, I do. But let me prep the conversation by using Israel as an example. Israel has a slightly higher infant death mortality rate than the US. Israel also has an Arab population with different cultural mores. What do you think tips the scale so that Israel has a slightly higher infant mortality rate than the US? Now don't say anything "racial", but see if you can tell me where the difference lies, Neil. Then ask yourself what can affect various infant mortality rates.

Bearing that in mind, usually one of the most accurate breakdowns on infant mortality is with the country statistics published by the CIA. When I have time, I'll go look.
Quote:
Your ilk...the "culture warriors" of the net...all come down to this directive. Submit, or leave. "If you hate the US so much: why don't you leave?" Funny, how often that is repeated.
Funny how often and repeatedly you only post anti-US posts, too. Coincidence? I think not.
Quote:
I'm even happy that you're here, posting...altho I wish that you'd respect Jun's guidelines (stop trying to lock threads where you disagree), and stop posting things that would anger Arabs.
You were one of those kids everyone hated, aren't you? How petty that statement was.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 09:57 PM   #43
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Offline
Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Wow, Mike, I thought Neil was agreeing with you.

Thanks to you both, anyway, for the info; I wasn't aware of the reporting differences.

Wrt the SBV's, the article I cited was old because the topic was old. I don't think the actual data cited has changed since then.

Mike wrote:
If Cheney mentions an article in the New York Times, that doesn't mean that the NYTimes is still not...[etc.]

Cheney didn't just 'mention it' in passing. He referred to it specifically by URL (though he said 'dot-com' instead of 'dot-org,' which ironically led people to an anti-Bush site) and asked viewers to 'please go look at this site for an unbiased analysis.' IIrc it was after the vice-presidential debates, but I may be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 10:00 PM   #44
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: On the supposed abilities of mindreaders

Well, at least you read my whole post, Mike. That's GOTTA count for something, right?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Actually, I do. But let me prep the conversation by using Israel as an example. Israel has a slightly higher infant death mortality rate than the US. Israel also has an Arab population with different cultural mores. What do you think tips the scale so that Israel has a slightly higher infant mortality rate than the US?
Since you only gave me two factiods, I can only give one answer...

I have no idea, since I have not enough information.

But, I certainly know what answer you'd LIKE me to say...

Quote:
Now don't say anything "racial", but see if you can tell me where the difference lies, Neil.
The difference lay in two countries with two disparate death-rates. Now, let's see...what OTHER factors, could be involved in Israel's IMD, OTHER than

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
an Arab population with different cultural mores.
1. war on the home fronts
2. poverty, and income distribution
3. access to clean water
4. education (higher ed levels lower IMD and fertility rates, as you no doubt are aware)
5. medical infrastructure
6. Are you including Palestine/Gaza, in these statistics? If so, well then...I guess that you're right, Mike. The people of Gaza are dying in DROVES, because the Palestinian's have differing cultural mores.

Yep, the IDF bombing the only electrical plant last year, had NOTHIN' to do wit it....

Quote:
Then ask yourself what can affect various infant mortality rates.
check.

Quote:
Bearing that in mind, usually one of the most accurate breakdowns on infant mortality is with the country statistics published by the CIA. When I have time, I'll go look.
Good. Now we're getting somewhere.

Quote:
Funny how often and repeatedly you only post anti-US posts, too. Coincidence? I think not.
Funny how little you see the hand of the US, in world affairs

[spoiler](hint: it isn't called a "superpower," for nothing)[/spoiler]

Not quite as funny, is how often people who rush to censorship, do so out of patriotic claims, and motives.

Coincidence? ahahahahaha.

Quote:
You were one of those kids everyone hated, aren't you?
And I bet you charmed all the ladies, in Jr High.

But please...let's not go there.

Quote:
How petty that statement was.

Mike
Not at all. You do all these things. Pls don't waste pixil-space denying something, easily reproduced.

AND, coming from someone who just suggested that I leave the country merely because I don't tow the party-line...now THAT'S rich.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 02-19-2007 at 10:14 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2007, 10:04 PM   #45
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Wow, Mike, I thought Neil was agreeing with you.
I bet Mike and I agree on a few things...he just likes to post on the stuff that we don't.

Quote:
Wrt the SBV's, the article I cited was old because the topic was old. I don't think the actual data cited has changed since then.
Exactimundo. The whole carp about dating was just a canard...as usual.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2007, 06:53 AM   #46
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Wow, Mike, I thought Neil was agreeing with you.
He was conceding I was right, but he had to toss a slam into it. [/quote]Thanks to you both, anyway, for the info; I wasn't aware of the reporting differences.[/quote] Actually, since the last major BS about IMD rates being poor in the US, a few of the news sources (but not the MSM) pointed out the difference, so that knowledge was out there. Like Neil, though, the MSM does not like to print anything positive about the US unless a Democrat is in office.
Quote:
Wrt the SBV's, the article I cited was old because the topic was old. I don't think the actual data cited has changed since then.
The data has not changed a bit.... the way it is reported and the real data has come out a bit more. To date, nothing charged in the book by the SBV's has been disproved, although some facts are contested by different witnesses who remember seeing different things. Kerry, on the othe hand, has had to change a number of his official statements and actually refuses to discuss others. He has not released his full military records (something Bush did when things were questioned) and there are still a number of questions that indicate he may have been courtmartialed first but then pardoned by Jimmy Carter, quietly.

But back to the point.... why does the MSM gleefully print reports that the US is behind in childcare, etc. They love to hear it, as does Neil. Remember that during the counter-culture days, those erstwhile "anti-war" types delighted in hating the US.... now many of those people are old enough to be the editors at most MSM outlets.

Best.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2007, 07:05 AM   #47
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: On the supposed abilities of mindreaders

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
The difference lay in two countries with two disparate death-rates. Now, let's see...what OTHER factors, could be involved in Israel's IMD, OTHER than



1. war on the home fronts
2. poverty, and income distribution
3. access to clean water
4. education (higher ed levels lower IMD and fertility rates, as you no doubt are aware)
5. medical infrastructure
Gee.... it's funny, but these problems in Arab culture seem to be worldwide, so it's not just the Arabs living near Israel. It's their culture.

Your argument reminds me of the old saw about low IQ's in a population being related to poverty. The problem with that one-sided statement is that it carefully avoids saying the obverse: people with low IQ's tend to wind up in poverty, in a competitive world. And the reason no one wants to say that is because it's "racist".... so they don't say it and they don't consider that it might be true (no matter how much we want to pretend everyone is equal if you just throw enough money at them, everyone is not equal and, anthropologically, that difference will show up across various animal populations).

Ultimately what happens is that problems are often not addressed because it is not politically correct to point out that there can be differences across animal populations (human, in this case) and cultural populations. That very type of reasoning is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Native Americans in the southwest US until someone bit the bullet and started publicly pointing out and treating the innate diabetes and Oriental Flushing Syndrome in their population. It just burns me up how many people die or go into poverty because the real problems cannot be addressed in a PC-trendy US. It's better that people die, then admit there are differences along ethnic and cultural lines, eh?

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2007, 01:13 PM   #48
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Slightly off the current topic I know, but how widely reported was the recent Unicef report on child wellbeing in 21 of the the top industrialised countries reported?

http://www.unicef.org.uk/press/news_...sp?news_id=890

The UK comes bottom of the list closely followed by the US, which is lamentable for two such rich nations.

We seemed to have 5 minute of hand wringing in the national media, and it seems now other more important issues ( the size of John Prescott's expense account ) have taken over.

thoughts?

regards,

Mark
p.s the Dutch kids come out tops, and they are all smiling, and that is not just because they've been to the local 'coffee' shop

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2007, 01:31 PM   #49
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Slightly off the current topic I know, but how widely reported was the recent Unicef report on child wellbeing in 21 of the the top industrialised countries reported?

http://www.unicef.org.uk/press/news_...sp?news_id=890

The UK comes bottom of the list closely followed by the US, which is lamentable for two such rich nations.
Actually, that was the topic under discussion, Mark. Do you really find it "lamentable" that an anti-West, anti-Semitic organization like the UN finds a reason to point the finger at the two strongest western powers? You realize that fully one-fourth of all resolutions passed by the UN are anti-Israel.... do you find that "lamentable"? Do you find it "lamentable" that the "Oil For Food" program came under the auspices of UNICEF and they have an axe to grind? Do you find it "lamentable" that countries like North Korea, and other US haters sit on the UNICEF panel that produced that report? Or do you just assume that anything reported bad about the US and UK must be true?

Try this one:

http://euobserver.com/9/23532

Of course, just like in the liberal media, much is made about the number of people in the US who are "below the poverty line". The real question is where that line is drawn, not who is below it. When one looks at the actuall breakdown of "below the poverty line" in the US, it's stunning to see that 47% of them own their own homes, have air-conditioning, and many other startling factors.

Start reading anti-western reports critically, Mark. Usually they are compiled and interpretted by people like Neil Mick.

Regards,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2007, 02:39 PM   #50
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Here's another example I've been watching. A muslim cab-driver got into an argument with white college students and tried to run them over. One of the students was seriously injured and is still in the hospital. The MSM is not covering the story at all. If it had been a white cab-driver running over 2 Muslim students it would be on the front page.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006515332

The coverage in the US by the MSM is overwhelmingly liberal. I remember when someone asked Andy Rooney on camera if the MSM was liberal and he looked at them like they were stupid. "Of course the media is liberal" he said. The only people I know who say the media is not liberal are liberals trying to pretend that the media, academia, and Hollywood are not overwhelmingly liberal.

Personally, I don't mind pointing out which media outlets (usually it's the "opinion journalists") are conservative. Or which ones are liberal. Someone who says he can't see any liberal media is either a liar or a dunce.

Mike
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:43 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate