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Old 11-06-2006, 02:07 AM   #26
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
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Re: Does your martial awareness have limits?

Someone getting a full nelson on you usually involves a fair amount wrestling to get you to elevate your shoulders and abduct your arms and to snake their arms up into position. If you are both standing, during at least the first half of that process, you should be able to prevent anyone up to about twice your size from doing it to you by simply dropping your weight, shoulders and arms. If you make yourself heavy and don't allow them to take your center of gravity by leaning you up onto them, it is nearly impossible to put the full nelson on - a variation on the 'you can't lift me' parlor trick. Once you have them futilely struggling to raise your arms, you should be able to grab one and do something with it.

I think that it is quite possible to get to a point where this particular sneak attack would not be possible to pull on you, no matter how unexpected, unless the assailant used some sort of atemi to distract and loosen you up. I have a teacher who says bumping into Saotome Sensei at a social gathering is like bumping into a tree with something spongy wrapped around it - even when he's just standing around at a potluck he's heavy and grounded. I doubt you could sneak up and put a full nelson on him.

Stomping on the foot is not a very good suggestion in this case, given the info that you did not want to hurt the guy. It sounds to me like he was being enough of an ass that I would not have felt bad if he suffered a minor injury, especially if it was the result of him falling or smashing into something. But, a stomp could crush the instep, breaking bones and/or tearing connective tissue in the foot, landing him in the hospital... a little harder to dismiss with an "oops".
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Old 11-06-2006, 10:02 AM   #27
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Does your martial awareness have limits?

Frankly, I'm usually more worried that some jerk will do something like this, and I'll fail to realise that it is not serious, and hurt them. A friend of mine ended up carrying a friend of his to the hospital with a broken arm because of a prank like that.

As for escape, elbows and shoulders and center down (as others have said), then I clear one leg behind theirs, and either body change or enter in behind them (kokyu nage / sokumen iriminage style). You can also bump their center with your butt, reach down and grab an ankle and lift up, then leg lock them. You can also sokumen step forward, turn and do ikkyo/ikkajo/ippondori. If you can do those, you can do nikkajo, sankajo, yonkajo, shiho, what ever.

And of course, there's always the good old head butt to the bridge of the nose that we used on the playground if they don't cinch it on tight right away.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-06-2006, 10:07 AM   #28
Adman
 
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Re: Does your martial awareness have limits?

Kevin,

I was going to post something similar, but I think you got to the point better than I would have. In fact, while a person is unsuccesfully trying to get a firm hold on someone from behind, who is well centered, a simple turn with a "hunh?" to see what's going on, would probably knock the "party-uke" down.

Sorry for drifting the thread.

thanks,
Adam
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Old 11-06-2006, 11:47 AM   #29
Brion Toss
Dojo: Aikido Port Townsend
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Re: Does your martial awareness have limits?

Martial awareness is simply awareness, in a martial context. If, as someone noted above, one strains to be aware, stress, nervous exhaustion, and paranoia is the ultimate result, and of course one is not very effective, martially or otherwise, in that state. One is likewise not effective if one is utterly inattentive. The trick, obviously, is to be attentive/aware, and yet relaxed. I believe that getting towards this state is one of the major purposes of Aikido practice, and parties and other places where crowding occurs are great practice opportunities.
With practice, one sees subtler and subtler details, as well as more and more of one's general surroundings. These two might seem to be mutually exclusive, but I think they will must occur together if one is doing things right.
And of course, though awareness is invaluable in conflict, it is priceless in maintaining peace.
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Old 11-06-2006, 04:28 PM   #30
roswell1329
 
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Re: Does your martial awareness have limits?

Quote:
Brion Toss wrote:
Martial awareness is simply awareness, in a martial context. If, as someone noted above, one strains to be aware, stress, nervous exhaustion, and paranoia is the ultimate result, and of course one is not very effective, martially or otherwise, in that state. One is likewise not effective if one is utterly inattentive. The trick, obviously, is to be attentive/aware, and yet relaxed. I believe that getting towards this state is one of the major purposes of Aikido practice, and parties and other places where crowding occurs are great practice opportunities.
With practice, one sees subtler and subtler details, as well as more and more of one's general surroundings. These two might seem to be mutually exclusive, but I think they will — must — occur together if one is doing things right.
And of course, though awareness is invaluable in conflict, it is priceless in maintaining peace.
I have come to a very similar conclusion. I feel now that if I spend my time focusing on my own balance and relaxation that I will naturally become more sensitive to these situations, and will be able to react more quickly.
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Old 11-06-2006, 04:31 PM   #31
roswell1329
 
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Re: Does your martial awareness have limits?

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Someone getting a full nelson on you usually involves a fair amount wrestling to get you to elevate your shoulders and abduct your arms and to snake their arms up into position.
Normally, I would agree with you. In this rare instance, however, I happened to be standing there with my hands on my hips, providing full access for the person to snake his hands through and connect at my neck.

I don't stand that way too often anymore.
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Old 11-07-2006, 05:44 AM   #32
ian
 
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Re: Does your martial awareness have limits?

P.S. recently I was at a friends place and a drunk bloke who was about twice my weight challenged me to try some aikido on him. I kept turning him down but he got up and kept egging me on, saying he'd done martial arts. Well I stood up and he lunged at me with some slapping; I managed to keep the slapping out of the way and illustrate (without contact) that I could hit him in the face, he came around the back of me to try and grab, and as he leant towards me I just moved to the side (with no real throw or contact) and he fell right onto the tiled floor, damaging his knee (he could hardly walk the next day and went to see a doctor). The amazing thing was the lack of contact and the importance just of keeping my OWN balance (he pretty much unbalanced himself as I moved). I also think my recent practise of tai-chi long form (yang style) has helped me improve my balance enormously and the relaxed, balanced movement was the key to this 'non-technique' (admittedly he was drunk, but no more so than I was).

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 11-07-2006, 09:10 AM   #33
Adman
 
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Re: Does your martial awareness have limits?

Quote:
Brad Edwards wrote:
In this rare instance, however, I happened to be standing there with my hands on my hips, providing full access for the person to snake his hands through and connect at my neck.
Even with "access" it should still be difficult for a full nelson to take hold. On the rare occasion when I practice this (rare, because once it's understood ... you've got it), I open up my arms to give uke full access. They still have a very difficult time, if they're able to get a full nelson at all. I suppose my point is that perhaps martial awareness is more about awareness of oneself. Where is my center? How is my posture? These things I can keep track of a whole lot easier than the guests at a party in a trusting environment. This might not cover a frying pan to the head or an all-out tackle to the side of my knee, but it covers most everyday things.
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