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Old 05-14-2006, 07:53 PM   #26
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
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Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Might seem like a joke to some, but I highly reccomend the exercises listed on the Japanese Sumo homepage:
http://www.sumo.or.jp/eng/kyokai/kenko_taiso.html

Especially Shiko.
Has a direct correlation to the "strength" needed to do aiki type movements,
not to mention that they give not so subtle hints of what parts need to be strengthened in the human body for efficient movement.
(Why else would sagawa and other tatsujin reccomend strengthening the body by doing this exercise at least a couple hundred times a day )
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Old 05-15-2006, 05:15 AM   #27
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
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Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
I read an aikido book recently that suggested doing pushups on your wrists (as opposed to knuckles or palms).
I visited one dojo that does wrist pushups as part of the usual warm up. They do it with the palms bent inwards (x repetitions) and outwards (another x repetitions)...

I was impressed by the standard of Aikido there as well.
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Old 06-03-2006, 09:07 PM   #28
Niko_Brekalo
Dojo: Three Rivers Aikido
Location: St. Louis
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3
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Re: Aikido Strengtheing

If you want a physical work out, sit seza on one end of the mat, then pick a forward roll start on ur left side, and roll to the other end of the mat, as soon as u reach the end, ushiro roll back to the other end, as soon as u get back to the starting spot, do the right side and so on and so fourth. then go to standing.

If you want to work on your focus, sit seza and have someone place their hands on your shoulders and try and push u over. If they cant push you over, get 2 people, and more and more until you cant find anyone else.

If you want to work on your techniques, pick a good uke and be as soft as you can on any technique, but soft enough so the lock/throw/pin works.

Repeat all the above
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Old 06-04-2006, 11:57 AM   #29
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Quote:
Trevor Wolfe wrote:
Yonkyo is my favorite wrist lock , it is painful and effective. I have taken to practicing Aikido off mat like Karate. Maki training is good, and now since I am an Aikidoist I am practicing Yonkyo on a broom stick, I have almost come to the point of breaking the broomstick, then I will move onto rebar. This will be effective in street combat. My question is, does anyone have any other Aikido toughening ideas.
Squeeze a three-inch bamboo and see if you can crush it. My teacher said O Sensei could do that (didn't specify a size, though...three inches sounds about right...you choose). Let me know how it goes.

Best wishes,

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 06-05-2006, 08:21 AM   #30
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
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Re: Aikido Strengthening

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
If you rely on strength you will always find some one stronger, who has practiced on a thicker broomstick or rebar.

David
People say this a lot, and I generally agree. But couldn't the same be true about internal power as well. You will always find someone who has more internal training then you. (For example your instructor). So wouldn't it be wise to be as strong both externally and internally as possible?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-05-2006, 08:35 AM   #31
Dirk Hanss
 
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Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
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Germany
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Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Sounds good and reasonable Don,
but if two people have great internal power, they would agree upon the higher skilled, without loosing a word and harming anybody.

But you need sufficient physical force nevertheless to get along with a bully.

So any of these simple rules are right and wrong at the same time. They depend on the situation and purpose.

Regards


Dirk
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Old 06-06-2006, 04:00 PM   #32
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
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Re: Aikido Strengthening

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
So wouldn't it be wise to be as strong both externally and internally as possible?
I've always found it strange that there is so much denial of the role of strength and strength development in aikido.

People forget (or never understood) that Morihei Ueshiba was a physically very powerful man. According to Kisshomaru Ueshiba in "Aikido" (the book), Morihei's original motivation for learning martial arts was that he watched his father being beaten up by a gang because of his political beliefs. Morihei determined that he would never suffer such indignity and he began training to develop strength. He lived a tough life, always seeking greater strength and by the time he was known as a martial artist, he was exceedingly strong. He learned how to do technique without using that strength, but it took his vast strength to reach the point where he was able to do that.

In modern aikido, people are worshipful of Morihei but they refuse to accept that he was a fanatical bodybuilder long before he was known as a sage. And it was the strength building that allowed him to master martial arts far enough to become known as a sage.

But ignore that fact, ignore that uke is a living, naturally responsive person, don't allow him to use his own strength and skill, then tell ourselves that our "effortless" (strengthless) aikido is really following "what O Sensei wanted us to do...." and we might as well train in jellodo.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 06-07-2006, 03:49 AM   #33
ksy
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 50
Malaysia
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Re: Aikido Strengthening

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
I've always found it strange that there is so much denial of the role of strength and strength development in aikido.

People forget (or never understood) that Morihei Ueshiba was a physically very powerful man. According to Kisshomaru Ueshiba in "Aikido" (the book), Morihei's original motivation for learning martial arts was that he watched his father being beaten up by a gang because of his political beliefs. Morihei determined that he would never suffer such indignity and he began training to develop strength. He lived a tough life, always seeking greater strength and by the time he was known as a martial artist, he was exceedingly strong. He learned how to do technique without using that strength, but it took his vast strength to reach the point where he was able to do that.

In modern aikido, people are worshipful of Morihei but they refuse to accept that he was a fanatical bodybuilder long before he was known as a sage. And it was the strength building that allowed him to master martial arts far enough to become known as a sage.

But ignore that fact, ignore that uke is a living, naturally responsive person, don't allow him to use his own strength and skill, then tell ourselves that our "effortless" (strengthless) aikido is really following "what O Sensei wanted us to do...." and we might as well train in jellodo.

i think i read somewhere that after seeing his father beaten up, o-sensei wanted to grow up to be big n strong, so he could kick some a**. So he trained and worked real hard. And with that strong physical strength, discipline and exceptional talent, he become a martial arts master and a feared fighter.

However, as time passed, o sensei began to understand the limitations of martial arts based on the physical strength as well, where over time younger, faster and stronger fighters would start to emerge and challenge him, much like the situation where an aging gunfighter in the wild west would find himself(that's what i read). and as such, he incorporated techniques into his fighting methods which put more emphasis on awareness, centering and positioning rather than physical strength per se, thus creating a "different" form of fighting.

having said that, i got nothing against a person who wants to be at his/her physical best as well. I think it's good to strive to maintain a certain level, whether its physical, mental or spiritual. just my 2 cents...

Last edited by ksy : 06-07-2006 at 03:56 AM.
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Old 06-07-2006, 02:44 PM   #34
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
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Re: Aikido Strengthening

Quote:
Kong Seng Yuan wrote:
as time passed, o sensei began to understand the limitations of martial arts based on the physical strength as well...and as such, he incorporated techniques into his fighting methods which put more emphasis on awareness, centering and positioning rather than physical strength per se, thus creating a "different" form of fighting.
The knowledge of using position, centering and awareness were all part of daito ryu. O Sensei had his "budo is love" revelations after he had trained extensively in that art. I don't think aikido relies less on strength than aikijujutsu. What was original in O Sensei's technique is similar to what Jigoro Kano did with jujutsu to create judo. He dropped the very dangerous forms but kept a real dynamic practice that can be enjoyed vigorously at a very high level while maintaining a great margin of safety and mutual respect.

The problem with that is that some very weak people are convinced that their aikido can nullify strong men. Maybe, but not if they're very strong and also experienced at fighting.

Well, strength has its limits, both for humans in general and for individuals specifically. We cease to grow strong after a point and begin to deteriorate.

But to beat a strong man without using strength, you still have to be pretty strong in many ways.

For instance, one of the strongest men I've ever known was a tiny little fellow, Murai Kyoichi, who trained extensively with Minoru Mochizuki but also with Morihei Ueshiba. Murai sensei is under five feet tall, under 100 pounds. I knew him in his seventies and eighties. He's now in his nineties and still training. He never used strength, but he was incredibly strong when he acted because he acted at the precise moment and at the precise place to get maximum results. He respected strength, but he didn't rely on it. I think that's really how O Sensei became. But I don't believe he would have ever become known and aikido would never have become known if O Sensei were not stronger than everyone he met in the days before he realized that "budo is love" and "true victory is self victory".

The danger is in thinking that we can short-cut his attainment. Because although there is a limit to the power of strength, it's usually much easier to find the limit of weakness.

Thanks,

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:01 PM   #35
ksy
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 50
Malaysia
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Re: Aikido Strengthening

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
The knowledge of using position, centering and awareness were all part of daito ryu. O Sensei had his "budo is love" revelations after he had trained extensively in that art. I don't think aikido relies less on strength than aikijujutsu. What was original in O Sensei's technique is similar to what Jigoro Kano did with jujutsu to create judo. He dropped the very dangerous forms but kept a real dynamic practice that can be enjoyed vigorously at a very high level while maintaining a great margin of safety and mutual respect.

The problem with that is that some very weak people are convinced that their aikido can nullify strong men. Maybe, but not if they're very strong and also experienced at fighting.

Well, strength has its limits, both for humans in general and for individuals specifically. We cease to grow strong after a point and begin to deteriorate.

But to beat a strong man without using strength, you still have to be pretty strong in many ways.

For instance, one of the strongest men I've ever known was a tiny little fellow, Murai Kyoichi, who trained extensively with Minoru Mochizuki but also with Morihei Ueshiba. Murai sensei is under five feet tall, under 100 pounds. I knew him in his seventies and eighties. He's now in his nineties and still training. He never used strength, but he was incredibly strong when he acted because he acted at the precise moment and at the precise place to get maximum results. He respected strength, but he didn't rely on it. I think that's really how O Sensei became. But I don't believe he would have ever become known and aikido would never have become known if O Sensei were not stronger than everyone he met in the days before he realized that "budo is love" and "true victory is self victory".

The danger is in thinking that we can short-cut his attainment. Because although there is a limit to the power of strength, it's usually much easier to find the limit of weakness.

Thanks,

David

dear david,

your responses are insightful but i cannot verify nor "un-verify" the points with you, due to my lack of thorough aikido historical knowledge. Though i think in any form of MA (karate, tkd etc) you can find "weak"people who want a short-cut to success or who know a bit but believe that they can kick major ass, that's a given. and even if i was an experienced karateka, aikidoist, which i'm not, i may still have have problems if coming up against someone strong and experienced at fighting.

"But to beat a strong man without using strength, you still have to be pretty strong in many ways." - i never had a chance to meet a great aikido master (not yet anyway) but like u said, Murai sensei was incredibly strong yet he didn't rely on physical strength per se, he acted at the precise moment and at the precise place to get maximum results. Gozo shioda called this timing.

O sensei was already known as a great martial artist, before he created aikido and would have been remembered as a great martial artist bcos of his strength and fighting talent, but fortunately, (from what i read, again) his aging caused him to reconsider his techniques bcos all his power and prowess were slowly seeping with age. i don't know much about aikijitsu and i don't know what "dangerous" forms were dropped, or the reasons why they were. perhaps those forms required a stronger physically exertion? i don't know. But I believe that if o sensei had continued to rely on his physical strength as a major contributor to his fighting effectiveness, he would never have ended up a legend bcos he would never have created that something else.

"The danger is in thinking that we can short-cut his attainment. Because although there is a limit to the power of strength, it's usually much easier to find the limit of weakness." - yes, however the danger is not only limited to the physical self, my friend. whenever a person thinks that he or she is "good enough", that danger exist whether in the form of physical, mental or technical overconfidence.

cheers, man...

Last edited by ksy : 06-07-2006 at 09:13 PM.
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