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Old 10-23-2002, 07:35 PM   #326
Brian H
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Opher, my example is, of course, a gross over simplification of the issue. I just think something has to be done decisively.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 10-23-2002, 10:11 PM   #327
opherdonchin
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I can see the argument for doing something decisive, but I also see Neil's arguments. Surely there must be a way to combine both positions into a healthy approach?

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 10-24-2002, 11:28 AM   #328
Brian H
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I agree.

The days of two armies lining up across a field and hacking each other to bits are gone.

In Gulf War I, we got considerable advantage for cutting off enemy troops from each other by wrecking bridges and severing the lines of communications. We were so adept at knocking out tanks/bunkers that Iraqi soldiers slept in the open to save themselves, because they were not being targeted, their "gear" was. One of the most successful missions of the war was using "Daisy cutters," in the desert. Unless you were near the blast, you would be OK, but they made a nuclear bomb sized BANG visible for miles. The only REALLY heavy enemy casualties were when aircraft shot up the "highway of death." Since the road was clogged with vehicles, it was a valid target. Toe to toe fighting was the exception, not the rule. We broke more spirits than bodies.

War has become more chess like and more orient toward reducing capabilities, and less on killing troops. Anything we can do to accomplish that goal short of war has merit.

Still I would much rather Saddam choke to death on a pork sandwich, than go to war.

Last edited by Brian H : 10-24-2002 at 11:33 AM.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 10-24-2002, 02:13 PM   #329
Neil Mick
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And, the inevitable killing of civilians. And what about the continued deaths from the usage of depleted uranium? The mines, and minefields still in place?

Your claim that war has become "chess-like" is very chilling. It reminds me of (then) Secty of State Madeleine Albright's claim that 1/2 million Iraqi deaths from economic sanctions is "worth the price."

Of course, we do not have to pay. They do.

And: what, exactly, have 10 years' worth of sanctions achieved?

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-24-2002 at 02:18 PM.
 
Old 10-24-2002, 02:29 PM   #330
Brian H
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Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
And: what, exactly, have 10 years' worth of sanctions achieved?
Nothing but suffering.

You have pointed out the problem and protested greatly about most possible solutions.

What do we do?

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 10-24-2002, 03:54 PM   #331
Neil Mick
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My point is, the US is already doing it.

Sanctions are in place, no-fly zones are in place, the military build-up is increasing, and the President now has carte-blanche to attack whatever he likes in Iraq, whenever he likes.

These occurrances are indisputable, you agree? The US is already marching off to war, with very little debate from the American public, and Congress.

We could be talking about an act that takes 15 years of US military occupation, to maintain stability to Iraq.

Can you imagine what this will do to the region? To us? The billions in dollars, the lives lost?

What WE, the American people, need to do, is become informed, debate the issues, tell your Congress what you feel, protest a heedless, thoughtless rush to war. Fight this chilling of the democratic process, any way you can.

The best way to fight it, is to use it. Talk about these issues with your friends and associates. Start with this question, if you can't think of anything to say:

The President has lied to the American public before, to manipulate us into war. Why not again?

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-24-2002 at 03:58 PM.
 
Old 10-25-2002, 06:23 AM   #332
Brian H
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Neil, you miss my point entirely. WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT IRAQ? You seem only to wish to stop the US. Your concern about US missteps may or may not be warranted, but the US military is not out to get You.

Iraq is, at least, a "concern" in the War on Terrorism. Methods of dealing with this issue can take many forms, but failure to act could be deadly.

Terrorists want to get the most bang for their terror buck, so they will tend to target densely populated areas. There has been much editorial chuckling about the fact that the liberal P.R.O.T.E.S.T.E.R.s are tend to live in those same densely populated urban areas. There have been many marches here in Washington, but they make little more than noise and never provide A.N.S.W.E.R.s

Timing is everything. I read this just now and am reminded once again of my deep respect for George Orwell:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?ID=4172

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 10-25-2002, 10:21 PM   #333
opherdonchin
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I'm with Brian on this one, Neil. Like I said a few posts ago in this thread: you are drawn to your rhetoric in a way that makes it hard to see past the rhetoric. If all you want me to walk away with is a sense that you have lots of good reasons why you think the U.S. shouldn't be going to war right now, you can stop now because I have noticed and seen this. If there is something else, though, I'm still not getting it and I really want to know.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 10-26-2002, 12:56 AM   #334
Neil Mick
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I am sorry that you fail to see my points, beyond my "rhetoric," Opher. Is this my problem, or yours? I guess it's both.

Nor, is it (I feel) my responsibility to defend my rhetorical style, as (I think) neither do you. And yet: you have one, as well.

I happen to like to bring to the forefront issues that are not often discussed, because they need discussion, and very badly. Also: this site helps me to communiate these issues more clearly, and helps me to debate.

Several times, ppl have thanked me for my perspectives. So: there you are.

If, you find it offensive that I have a sarcastic tone, or, as Brian calls it, bitter: well, I find it offensive that 1000 Arabs are in jail with no charges and no release of their names. Why do people not discuss this one fact? Why do we let it fall away, merely because the media forgets?

Brian and Opher: I am not speaking from bitterness. I am speaking from outrage. Big difference.

(Recently: I just finished a conversation on Israeli Palestinian issues on http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ul...7&t=000032&p=2 with a person with a hardline Zionist stance, to put it mildly. We never completely saw eye-to-eye, but we managed to attain a certain level of respect, and even saw agreement on a few points.)
Quote:
Brian Heanue (Brian H) wrote:
Neil, you miss my point entirely. WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT IRAQ? You seem only to wish to stop the US. Your concern about US missteps may or may not be warranted, but the US military is not out to get You.

Iraq is, at least, a "concern" in the War on Terrorism. Methods of dealing with this issue can take many forms, but failure to act could be deadly.

Terrorists want to get the most bang for their terror buck, so they will tend to target densely populated areas. There has been much editorial chuckling about the fact that the liberal P.R.O.T.E.S.T.E.R.s are tend to live in those same densely populated urban areas. There have been many marches here in Washington, but they make little more than noise and never provide A.N.S.W.E.R.s

Timing is everything.
Brian: I did not ignore your question. I (and many others) just think (part of) the answer's already there...you just don't believe it.

And yes, I agree: protestors ONLY provide NOISE and never provide ANSWERS. But that's the point: protestors are there to protest. You want answers (actually, I think you mean "alternatives"), then try reading more of the left journals...they give plenty of alternatives.

You know, this insistence of "WHAT MUST WE DO??" is kind of funny. It sounds to me like a person trying to convince himself that violence is the only way out.

But, there is certainly more than one way out....it's called weapons inspections.

But, I know: this crazy peacenik in Santa Cruz is incredibly naive if that's gonna fly, right?

So: listen to the words of a Republican, former Marine intelligence officer who was head of the inspection team in '94-'98:

http://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news/ritter.html

So many of the international concerns posed are misrepresented or distorted by the media. Iraq may be a threat, but why is it literally a treasonous act to simply question whether war is the best option?

Look, all due respect, and all: the President has LIED. He quoted a nonexistent report; both he and Tony Blair did, on TV, together.

No proof on Iraq's mass-destruction status; none. Zippo (I'm sorry, one and all, but I gotta say it: WHERE's THE BEEF??? whew: that felt better).

But you want an alternative? Fine: weapons inspection, with immediate military (coalition only, no unilateralism) threat for any decisive lapse. No (I mean absolutely: no) US meddling in the inspections process. Process Hussein as a war criminal for crimes already committed, and try him through the UN, as such. A full investigation of US/CIA involvement in providing chemical and bacteriological weapons to Hussein. A freeze on all weapons deals, for all countries. The US pays its debt to the UN, and changes its role in the UN (a topic for another thread).

If you can give me one verifiable reason why this approach won't work, then you're way ahead of the President.

P.S. Iraq is not out to get YOU, either: Brian. Nor: can it get to the US.

And: if you are concerned about the terrorist threat, we should look at the most likely, most dangerous, and least secure, targets: nuclear power plants.

All that radioactive material, poorly guarded...who needs a "weapon-o-mass-destruction," when you can simply fly a one-seater into a plant? Take out a whole city...?

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-26-2002 at 01:05 AM.
 
Old 10-26-2002, 02:50 AM   #335
Neil Mick
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When you practice Aikido, are you training to move yourself, or are you training to move uke?
 
Old 10-26-2002, 01:20 PM   #336
opherdonchin
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Quote:
But you want an alternative? Fine: weapons inspection, with immediate military (coalition only, no unilateralism) threat for any decisive lapse.
I may not be following things as closely as I should, but I understand that this is what the U.S. is trying to pursue in the United Nations right now. As I understand it, France and Russia are unwilling to back this idea because of a basic objection to the idea that the military intervention would be 'immediate' or 'automatic' given a lapse.
Quote:
(Recently: I just finished a conversation on Israeli Palestinian issues on http://65.119.177.201/cgi...17&t=000032&p=2 with a person with a hardline Zionist stance, to put it mildly. We never completely saw eye- to-eye, but we managed to attain a certain level of respect, and even saw agreement on a few points.)
This was an interesting thread. It's nice to see two people who disagree focusing on finding their points of mutual understanding.
Quote:
When you practice Aikido, are you training to move yourself, or are you training to move uke?
Ummm ... I train to move myself, I think. Maybe I train myself to notice the way that my movement and uke's movements are so intimately tied together. Why do you ask?

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 10-26-2002, 03:42 PM   #337
opherdonchin
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Quote:
There has been much editorial chuckling about the fact that the liberal P.R.O.T.E.S.T.E.R.s are tend to live in those same densely populated urban areas. There have been many marches here in Washington, but they make little more than noise and never provide A.N.S.W.E.R.s

Timing is everything. I read this just now and am reminded once again of my deep respect for George Orwell:

http://www.frontpagemag.c...cle.asp?ID=4172
So, I read this and found it a little bit short-sighted. Of course (being somewhat poorly read), I haven't read the original Orwell. The key point, to me, is that just because anti-war protesters are sometimes wrong (for example, the anti-war movements in Britain and the U.S. before World War II are probably an example), they aren't always wrong (for example, 'history' has ruled in favor of the Vietnam anti-war movement just as it has ruled against the WWII anti-war movement. I think a better example of a useless and meaningless war is WWI. In fact, as I understand it, it was WWI and its memory that drove, to a large extent, the anti-war movement during WWII.)

On the whole, and speaking historically, an anti-war movement is more likely to be justified than unjustified. World War II is probably an exception. Perhaps the anti-war movement in the north before the Civil War would be another. I'm not sure.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 10-26-2002, 07:17 PM   #338
Neil Mick
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
I may not be following things as closely as I should, but I understand that this is what the U.S. is trying to pursue in the United Nations right now.
Actually, the official US policy is to oust Saddam Hussein. The UN prefers a weapons-inspection first approach. The US is merely softening its rhetoric to get political leverage later, in hopes that Hussein will "slip up," IMO.

The issue is further complicated because of US meddling with the inspections during the late '90's. Hussein (correctly) saw the inspections as an opportunity for the US intelligence to gather info on his movements, etc. preparatory to an assassination attempt, coup, etc.
Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
Ummm ... I train to move myself, I think. Maybe I train myself to notice the way that my movement and uke's movements are so intimately tied together. Why do you ask?
Because, metaphorically: it fits with what I am asking Brian to view as the US's best course of action.

If the US stops seeing uke (Hussein) as some enemy to "push aside;" instead first examining how the US (nage) itself interacts with the world...how differently this whole outcome would be, don't you think? Instead of constantly yelling: "Aggressor! Evil man! Gotta take him out, now now now." (not that he ISN'T evil, mind; but I question that violent overthrow is the best way to deal with the situation).

P.S. Regarding pacifists: the European pacifists pre-WWI mostly joined the war-effort once it started. They saw themselves as patriots first, and social activists second, to paraphrase the words of one of them.

It is a mistake to paint pacifists with too broad a brush (BTW, I am definitely not a pacifist).

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-26-2002 at 07:25 PM.
 
Old 10-27-2002, 06:04 AM   #339
Brian H
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Analogy:

You live in Urban, USA. Two blocks from your home is a crack house. The street traffic around the crack house does not directly effect you because of the distance.

What does effect you are the number of muggers in your part of town.

Because of this high crime rate you get mugged once or twice a year. Hardly a week goes by that you don't here about someone in the neighborhood getting robbed. Several months ago, a woman was raped nearby and there have been a number of murders in the area in recent years.

The street crime in the neighborhood is nebulas. You never know if any route home is safe until you final make it in the door. That door is heavily re-enforced against the day that the robbers will run out of victim on the street and will come after you in your home.

The one thing you can count on is that darn crack house. It is always there. Twenty-four hours, seven days a week of "victimless crime." Not all of the criminals prowling your streets and alleys are crack heads, but many are. Not all of the crack heads by their dope at that crack house, but when you see them around, you blame the crack house.

Do you think that getting rid of the crack house would improve conditions in the neighborhood?

With a "crime landmark" so publicly removed, would the criminal element feel less comfortable plying their trade nearby (even if they never stepped foot into that crack house)?

Would the naked use of force by armed foreigners (the police) adversely effect the well-being of the area? (The last citizen who took on the dealers burned to death with their whole family in a fire bombing)

The fall of the Iron Curtain virtually eliminated "left wing" international terrorism and crippled it on a national level (it still struggles on in a few hot spots like Greece).

Would the fall of Iraq have an effect on international Islamist terrorism?

Opher,

Orwell is great political reading, those quotes were from his essays. "1984" is good, but "Animal Farm" is among my favorite books. If you want a interesting book with some very interesting political undertones, I suggest "Starship Troopers" by Robert Heinlien (do not hold the movie against the book, book=brilliant, movie=cartoonish) good sci-fi story with several cool subtexts to it.

Neil, if you were a Kurd or Marsh Arab, would you be "blaming America first?" The US/Allies failure to stop Nazi aggression earlier caused millions to die. When German troops occupied the Sudaten Land, they were under orders to retreat if the met resistance. The met none. Even during the invasion of France, the German Army was inferior in number of troops and tanks to the Allies. But action beats reaction. German war plans were for a start to hostilities in 1945, when the next generation of weapons and a world class navy would have been on line. It was the weakness and timidness of the world leaders at the time that emboldened Hitler's monstrous ego.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 10-27-2002, 02:06 PM   #340
Neil Mick
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Quote:
Brian Heanue (Brian H) wrote:
Analogy:

The one thing you can count on is that darn crack house. It is always there. Twenty-four hours, seven days a week of "victimless crime." Not all of the criminals prowling your streets and alleys are crack heads, but many are. Not all of the crack heads by their dope at that crack house, but when you see them around, you blame the crack house.

Do you think that getting rid of the crack house would improve conditions in the neighborhood?

With a "crime landmark" so publicly removed, would the criminal element feel less comfortable plying their trade nearby (even if they never stepped foot into that crack house)?

Would the naked use of force by armed foreigners (the police) adversely effect the well-being of the area? (The last citizen who took on the dealers burned to death with their whole family in a fire bombing)

The fall of the Iron Curtain virtually eliminated "left wing" international terrorism and crippled it on a national level (it still struggles on in a few hot spots like Greece).

Would the fall of Iraq have an effect on international Islamist terrorism?

Neil, if you were a Kurd or Marsh Arab, would you be "blaming America first?" The US/Allies failure to stop Nazi aggression earlier caused millions to die. When German troops occupied the Sudaten Land, they were under orders to retreat if the met resistance. The met none. Even during the invasion of France, the German Army was inferior in number of troops and tanks to the Allies. But action beats reaction. German war plans were for a start to hostilities in 1945, when the next generation of weapons and a world class navy would have been on line. It was the weakness and timidness of the world leaders at the time that emboldened Hitler's monstrous ego.
The Kurds trust the US about as much as they trust Iraq. Harldly "innocent" leadership themselves, the Kurds well understand what they are, in world affairs: political pawns. The Kurds well remember the US support of Hussein, as they were being gassed, FWIH.

I am always puzzled by conservatives' quick verbal "reach" to WWII, to justify this or that military move. Much as George Bush Sr. likened Hussein to Hitler, there are many differences (we did not help bring Hitler to power, AFAIK. We did not support Hitler's invasion of Poland, as we did with Hussein attacking Iran. We did not supply Hitler with chemical, and bacteriological, weapons).

Does it make any difference, the cost of human suffering, and the possible overreaching this action may spur (estimates of 15-20 YEARS of US occupation. Vietnam was about 12 years, give or take. How many future Presidencies will be spent to getting us "out of Iraq?") for this proposed action?

But, forget everything else in this post: let's go back to your crack house analogy. I think naked use of police force, with no concern with due process, DOES affect the area. Remember the bombing of MOVE?

Do you think that dropping a bomb on MOVE's house improved the crime-level in that neighborhood?

Remember Amadou Diallo? Exactly one week after Amadou Diallo was shot 42x for dropping his wallet, another black man was shot, within 1block of Diallo's death.

Do I think the overstepping of police procedure on a local level has a concurrent national ripple-effect? From my viewpoint, it seems to be.

If the police feel they can ignore due process, why should they let a little thing like admissable evidence stop them?

Hmm: maybe the neighbors of the crack house are guilty, too. Let's just pay them a visit, see what we find...

And what if the police chief was caught lying about the danger and relevance of this crack house, to the media? Do you think that it's a good idea to listen to his suggestions? Shouldn't a neighborhood citizen at least CONSIDER that the chief has other motives for ignoring due process, besides an honest concern for public safety?

BTW, did you listen to Ritter's speech? Does it make any difference to you, that the leaders so pushing for war are exaggerating (lying) about the clear and present danger?

And: since there has been no conclusive proof brought forward of any clear link between Iraq and international terrorism, I wouldn't know how it would affect world terrorism, if Iraq is bombed & invaded.

Connections between the US and international terror, well: that's another matter...

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-27-2002 at 02:19 PM.
 
Old 10-27-2002, 03:40 PM   #341
Brian H
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Neil,

I set up a simple case of neighborhood crime and you turn it into an elaborate conspiracy theory. The police serve a valuable roll in the community and pulling out a few tragedies to show why the police are to blame in all things mystifies me.

I.E. "Blame the police first"

You even hold the US responsible to Saddam's treatment of the Kurds!!

I am parachuting out of this black helicopter.

As to the Diallo shooting, Mas Ayoob did a great article laying out the incident in "American Handgunner" a while back.

Picture some officers stopping a rape suspect (believed to be armed), who has just run into a dark alcove upon seeing the officers. The suspect disobeys their commands to not move and reaches into his waist area and removes a dark object. One of Officers steps back and falls off the stoop breaking his pelvis, crying out in pain, and accidently discharging his pistol. The sound of the shot and the actual bullet ricochet back at the Officers. They are in total sensory overload and think the suspect just shot their partner. More shots are fired and more sound and bullets come back (they missed a lot and many of the bullets passed through the victim) at the officers. The suspect falls and is secured.

No gun is found.

Only a wallet.

The Officers begin frantic first aid, begging the victim to survive.

It was not to be.

Bad cops would have planted a gun. Good cops face the music.

Neil, can you put yourself in their shoes?

Or are you just in the band?

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 10-28-2002, 07:34 AM   #342
opherdonchin
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Quote:
set up a simple case of neighborhood crime and you turn it into an elaborate conspiracy theory. The police serve a valuable roll in the community and pulling out a few tragedies to show why the police are to blame in all things mystifies me.

I.E. "Blame the police first"
I think this is unfair, Brian. I mean, while you are right that any given situation is complicated and that the police do a very difficult job and we should not be quick to blame them, I think that that is not Neil's point. Neil is saying that the lack of 'due process' in the Iraq case is as troubling as the lack of due process would be in any criminal case. I can't help but agree with him that, as bad as the hypothetical crack house might be, it's important that police follow proper procedure in combatting it. Similarly, I think that one of the most troubling aspects of the Bush administrations approach to the Iraq issue is its failure to take the UN seriously or to accept the importance of multilateralism in international affairs.

On the other hand, Neil, I think that you didn't really address what I said about the administration going to the UN now. The fact that it was not their original intent does not mean that they aren't trying to do it now.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 10-28-2002, 08:08 AM   #343
Brian H
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Life is not fair. People sometimes are.

Nothing in my hypothetical situation implied that the police would do anything unethical/illegal. Just that the crack house would be gone.

The scenario was from the prospective of someone two blocks from the crack house. Such a person would likely not be aware of the fate of the crack house until later. The crack house is a visible symbol of the greater disorder around them (and many would argue not a cause in itself)

The scenario could have just as easily been a tale of community activists who bought the building, drove the dealers out and turned the building into a (insert your preferred wholesome purpose).

My aim was to point out that removing one blight from the area ripples through the community with positive results. It was not meant to directly translate into a all encompassing model of world events.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 10-28-2002, 07:12 PM   #344
Neil Mick
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Blush! X-Files & Blk Hawk Down! Eek!

Quote:
Brian Heanue (Brian H) wrote:
Neil,

I set up a simple case of neighborhood crime and you turn it into an elaborate conspiracy theory.

You even hold the US responsible to Saddam's treatment of the Kurds!!

I am parachuting out of this black helicopter.
What is it with you and black helicopters, Brian? As Opher mentioned: I was talking about accountability and working within, rather than outside, the system, and you're spinning it as wacko conspiracy theory.

I agree with Opher: it's not a fair assessment. You didn't give it much thought, from my perspective.

But then again: you haven't even acknowledged reading any of my links. I read your's; are you giving me the same courtesy? Everyone has an opinion: if you won't at least read (or listen to) the opposing viewpoints, then I can see why you are so willing to follow a leader who lies to the American public.

And I did not hold the US responsible for attacking the Kurds; I said that Hussein had the support of the US. I was paraphrasing the words of a Middle Eastern policy expert, on the Kurds' opinion of the US.

But, you know what? I hope you're right. I hope that all the 10's of thousands ofd protestors in the US, and 500,000 in Italy, and the rest around the world, are wrong.

I hope that this is simply another "business as usual" attack upon another 3rd World country unable to defend itself, by the US. I hope that Hussein will be painlessly removed, and a better, more enlightened leader will be tapped, to take his place.

I can hope, but past precedent, and history, has suggested that I am misguided in this hope. Time wil tell...

BTW, Opher: yes, the US is going to the UN, but I see it as taking 1/2 step back, before taking the 200 steps forward to Iraq. It is official US policy to remove Hussein from power; this is not something that the President can simply back away from.

Regarding the police, etc: I am going to refrain from coment, because it was too far off-topic. I used the police as a metaphor for the rippling effect a policing agency has on a neighborhood when violence gets out of hand and the police use overt (often unnecessary, as in the MOVE bombing), rather than a critique upon the police (not that they are blameless; it's just the workings for another thread).
 
Old 10-29-2002, 05:03 AM   #345
Brian H
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How can you use the MOVE incident as an example of "often" unnecessary force? I will give you that it was arguably the only aerial bombing in the history of American law enforcement, but the fire started out rather small. It only got out of control because the MOVE people kept shooting at the firemen (and had killed a policeman in an earlier incident) MOVE made their bed, they can lay in it.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 10-29-2002, 06:54 AM   #346
Brian H
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http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?ID=4245

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 10-29-2002, 07:09 AM   #347
Brian H
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Re: X-Files & Blk Hawk Down! Eek!

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
But then again: you haven't even acknowledged reading any of my links. I read your's; are you giving me the same courtesy?
yes
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
I hope that this is simply another "business as usual" attack upon another 3rd World country unable to defend itself, by the US. I hope that Hussein will be painlessly removed, and a better, more enlightened leader will be tapped, to take his place.

I can hope, but past precedent, and history, has suggested that I am misguided in this hope. Time wil tell...
That would, of course, be ideal. However, when I look out into the world and I do not use "ideal" as my measuring stick.

The US has, at times, used all of the tack of a horny teenager in matters foreign and domestic.

Ideal?

No, but still better than any other game in town.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 10-29-2002, 08:14 AM   #348
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Baltimore
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 586
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Quote:
Brian wrote:
My aim was to point out that removing one blight from the area ripples through the community with positive results. It was not meant to directly translate into a all encompassing model of world events.
Ok. Then I didn't understand the point, and now I see (and accept) the analogy. Of course, within this analogy the real issue becomes (as it is for many people) whether the U.S. is really committed to replacing Saddam with a 'more enlightened' alternative. Neil would probably be quick to point out that we don't have a strong history of this (although we have occasionally managed it). Certainly, it would be comforting if we were doing a better job in Afghanistan. I'm not sure I buy the 'anything is better than Saddam' argument in this context. After all, if you burned down the crack house with 10s of people inside in order to build a gambling den, I'm not sure I (as the neighbor) would really be so overjoyed.

Still, you point is taken. I also think the stuff that I (and Neil) was saying about the rule of law is relevant to this situation even if it doesn't address the stuff that you meant to highlight in bringing up the analogy.
Quote:
Neil wrote:
You didn't give it much thought, from my perspective.

But then again: you haven't even acknowledged reading any of my links. I read your's; are you giving me the same courtesy? Everyone has an opinion: if you won't at least read (or listen to) the opposing viewpoints, then I can see why you are so willing to follow a leader who lies to the American public.
I think this sort of veers off towards that ad hominems again. Neil, I'm asking you for my sake to please keep it REALLY civil because that's the only way the conversation stays interesting to me.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 
Old 10-29-2002, 05:23 PM   #349
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Fair enough, Opher. The jibe might have been taken as a snipe, for which I apologize.

No offense meant, Brian.

But: "better than any other game in town?" Not in this present, "New World Disorder," from my perspective.
 
Old 10-29-2002, 08:18 PM   #350
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Baltimore
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Neil, where would you point to for a 'better game'? Europe is the only thing that comes to my mind, and I'm not sure if they are really as well behaved as they claim they are.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
 

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