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Old 10-04-2007, 06:10 AM   #251
nagoyajoe
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Aikido must develop for modern times...and some ryu have. It IS as simple as that. Period. Why not jump on board and push our art forward? Enough with the BS discussions of Aikido vs whomever/whichever art. Meaningless dribble. We must have the courage to press forward and develop our art to the modern art. THIS is true aikido.
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Old 10-04-2007, 06:11 AM   #252
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

We must have the courage to press forward and develop our art to the modern WORLD. Sorry.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:53 AM   #253
mazhar dardari
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

[quote= always stated, "Necessity is the mother of invention"!

If you want the techniques to work, then it's necessary to modify or invent.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you in the opinion, there is in Arab nation, many of the trouble in the streets and public places, so the Persons who want to learn Aikido, Need to defend themselves Defense and their families, no body trained martial arts for health only.
I am not Teach attack the people, I Teach Response attack, and if you want to Response attack you mast have skills to do that, you must have experience and the experience gives self-confidence and Self-confidence give the Courage. And the experience can not be taken from traditional exercises, because you need to take the Techniques in your methods, So that you have enough experience.

Note: I am so sorry for my bad language.

Thanks
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:54 AM   #254
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Something I've always found odd. Especially after training in combat sports. Why not just train the way it works, rather then a way that doesn't?
My sentiments exactly!

I think the overwhelming mentality behind unrealistic training for a lot of Aikidoist has more to do with the need, or the feeling of respect for the culture that the art developed from. It's unfortunate that there is not enough Aikidoist who see the need for more realistic application of technique, whether it be in the ring, MMA competition or in the street for self defense. Real application of technique is curcial to the development of self defense.

This is one of the many reasons for the different understandings of Aikido. Jason DeLucia clearly understands the importance of modification of a technique to the environment you are dealing with. Roy Dean is another Aikidoist who understands the importance of adaptation of a technique to the situation confronted with.

Check out the below clips. Of course some are just demonstrations. The first clip is real application of Aiki techniques.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=n5KLiDMzuTU

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4vib4tjKnQY

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nujq9iiR78Q
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:00 AM   #255
mazhar dardari
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Joseph Pielech wrote: View Post
Aikido must develop for modern times...and some ryu have. It IS as simple as that. Period. Why not jump on board and push our art forward? Enough with the BS discussions of Aikido vs whomever/whichever art. Meaningless dribble. We must have the courage to press forward and develop our art to the modern art. THIS is true aikido.
great This is really aikido.
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:04 AM   #256
mazhar dardari
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
My sentiments exactly!

I think the overwhelming mentality behind unrealistic training for a lot of Aikidoist has more to do with the need, or the feeling of respect for the culture that the art developed from. It's unfortunate that there is not enough Aikidoist who see the need for more realistic application of technique, whether it be in the ring, MMA competition or in the street for self defense. Real application of technique is curcial to the development of self defense.

This is one of the many reasons for the different understandings of Aikido. Jason DeLucia clearly understands the importance of modification of a technique to the environment you are dealing with. Roy Dean is another Aikidoist who understands the importance of adaptation of a technique to the situation confronted with.

Check out the below clips. Of course some are just demonstrations. The first clip is real application of Aiki techniques.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=n5KLiDMzuTU

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4vib4tjKnQY

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nujq9iiR78Q
this site Locked
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:09 AM   #257
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Mazhar Dardari wrote: View Post
this site Locked
The site locked?
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:25 AM   #258
mazhar dardari
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
The site locked?
Yes salim is locked, in arab countries
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:27 AM   #259
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Mazhar Dardari wrote: View Post
Yes salim is locked, in arab countries
Strange!!!
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:37 AM   #260
mazhar dardari
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Strange!!!
hahaha, this normal many site blocked.
if you can upload to yahoo video I grateful to you.

thanks
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:05 AM   #261
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
.....I think the overwhelming mentality behind unrealistic training for a lot of Aikidoist has more to do with the need, or the feeling of respect for the culture that the art developed from .....
The culture and history are big part of what make a martial art, any art, what it is. It's not just a collection of techniques but a snapshot of what the founder was thinking at the time. You can't understand what's going on without understanding that or it's presuppositions and assumptions.

All you need to study joint locks and throws are a training partner and a crash mat; all you need to wear are sweats and any t-shirt. You can summarize the principles behind all the locks and throws in under five minutes. You don't need everything else for that .... but the everything else makes it a martial art and not just a mass of throws and locks.

And you have to think of the future -- what will your students be teaching their students after you're gone. Would they get any kind of sense of the art you fell in love with in the first place? Or will all that be long gone?

Maybe the traditional way isn't the best way to train those techniques, but then again, maybe it is. I don't know; I'd rather find out what it gets me than throw it out for the sake of doing the "in" thing.

Everything has something to offer. You just have to be willing to take the time to find out what it is.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:20 AM   #262
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Of course we have to modify, adapt and invent!!! Do we think that "Aikido" was "complete" the moment O-Sensei dropped dead? If he had lived another 10 years, would what we call "Aikido" be what it is today? The techniques we learn in the Dojo, as far as I can understand, are simply possible examples or common expressions of a concept. The concept being: blending energy in harmony. These examples are learned so that we can begin to understand through experiencing what it feels like when we are manifesting a physical reality of this concept properly. The true Aikido should be spontaneous and intuitive, it should "work" just as well as againt a boxer as it should against a flying monkey from Oz. The only limitation to my aikido, once i understand the concept, is the one I put up in my own mind. Kamiwaza - divine techniques. To be divine is to be creative and intelligent. Maybe this is a key to how we should express ourselves through Aikido.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:35 AM   #263
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Mazhar Dardari wrote: View Post
hahaha, this normal many site blocked.
if you can upload to yahoo video I grateful to you.

thanks
I will try after I figure out, how it is done.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:41 AM   #264
Basia Halliop
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
All you need to study joint locks and throws are a training partner and a crash mat; all you need to wear are sweats and any t-shirt. You can summarize the principles behind all the locks and throws in under five minutes. You don't need everything else for that .... but the everything else makes it a martial art and not just a mass of throws and locks.

And you have to think of the future -- what will your students be teaching their students after you're gone. Would they get any kind of sense of the art you fell in love with in the first place? Or will all that be long gone?
Interesting thoughts, but you make it sound like the culture and clothes and stuff are what people fall in love with. But the physical principles themselves ARE for many people, the core that excites them, and ARE 'the art that you fell in love with in the first place.'

The clothes and japanese words and all that do add a nice note of continuity or history to the classes, which is nice, but for me, if all I had was the people and a crash mat and sweats and a T-shirt, I'm not sure I'd actually care much, nor would many people. Those things are pretty superficial in the end.
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:04 AM   #265
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
The culture and history are big part of what make a martial art, any art, what it is. It's not just a collection of techniques but a snapshot of what the founder was thinking at the time. You can't understand what's going on without understanding that or it's presuppositions and assumptions.

All you need to study joint locks and throws are a training partner and a crash mat; all you need to wear are sweats and any t-shirt. You can summarize the principles behind all the locks and throws in under five minutes. You don't need everything else for that .... but the everything else makes it a martial art and not just a mass of throws and locks.

And you have to think of the future -- what will your students be teaching their students after you're gone. Would they get any kind of sense of the art you fell in love with in the first place? Or will all that be long gone?

Maybe the traditional way isn't the best way to train those techniques, but then again, maybe it is. I don't know; I'd rather find out what it gets me than throw it out for the sake of doing the "in" thing.

Everything has something to offer. You just have to be willing to take the time to find out what it is.
Some will not gravitate towards the traditions and culture so much. Respect for the founder and culture will always be granted from a different perspective of acknowledgement of it's roots.

I like the approach of Roy Dean. His web site is very informative about real application of Aikido techniques. On his web site his has a fantastic free copy, article on Aikido with some references to Stanley Pranin. The inspiration from Stanley Pranin brought Roy Dean to the understanding and the need to modify and invent techniques for effectiveness.

Stanley Pranin has had several interviews with Aikido masters, Minoru Mochizuki and Kenji Tomiki. They both affirmed the importance of cross training.

Aikido was never meant to be tied down to one set of principles, frozen in time. The earlier students confirm the methodology of continuous evolution of effectiveness, modifying and inventing.

Hiroshi Isoyama stated, "Necessity is the mother of invention"! Several times he has invented or modified his Aikido techniques to make them effective.

Aikido for some will be nothing more than technique, leaving the tradition for the history books, and that's OK for some.

http://www.jujutsujournal.com/

http://www.roydeanacademy.com/
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:28 AM   #266
DonMagee
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Or at least adapt them to the environment. Dojo is not the ring nor the street.

Like a judo throw: The same technique a doesn't look exactly the same as in judo kata, randori, a mma match or self defense. There are common points but there are modifications due the context where the technique is performed.
But, when you see a judo throw, it still looks like a judo throw. Its kind of like watching kung fu spar. When they drill you get cool traps and neat movements and all this complex stuff. When they spar, it looks exactly like normal kickboxing.

I guess what I mean to say is, when I watch a bjj guy spar, it looks like bjj. When I watch a judo guy spar, it looks like judo. But that video looks like judo with some incidental aikido moves.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:48 AM   #267
mazhar dardari
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
The culture and history are big part of what make a martial art, any art, what it is. It's not just a collection of techniques but a snapshot of what the founder was thinking at the time. You can't understand what's going on without understanding that or it's presuppositions and assumptions.

All you need to study joint locks and throws are a training partner and a crash mat; all you need to wear are sweats and any t-shirt. You can summarize the principles behind all the locks and throws in under five minutes. You don't need everything else for that .... but the everything else makes it a martial art and not just a mass of throws and locks.

And you have to think of the future -- what will your students be teaching their students after you're gone. Would they get any kind of sense of the art you fell in love with in the first place? Or will all that be long gone?

Maybe the traditional way isn't the best way to train those techniques, but then again, maybe it is. I don't know; I'd rather find out what it gets me than throw it out for the sake of doing the "in" thing.

Everything has something to offer. You just have to be willing to take the time to find out what it is.
Great Michael, but remember the thinking in 1922 different now,
we not Talk abut history or wrong thinking, we talk abut Effective Exercises and How can we defend ourselves in a practical way, We along The Platform for Osensei, like that aikido Continue and in 2030 We will be history.

Domo
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Old 10-04-2007, 02:35 PM   #268
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I guess what I mean to say is, when I watch a bjj guy spar, it looks like bjj. When I watch a judo guy spar, it looks like judo. But that video looks like judo with some incidental aikido moves.
Maybe what you see is aikido in an one vs. one, no weapons, no striking, friendly sparring wearing gi..., of course it looks like judo. In that clip you're seeing the most useful aikido techniques for that environment.

Maybe you expected to see aikido techniques designed for a different environment.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:18 PM   #269
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
Maybe the traditional way isn't the best way to train those techniques, but then again, maybe it is. I don't know; I'd rather find out what it gets me than throw it out for the sake of doing the "in" thing.

Everything has something to offer. You just have to be willing to take the time to find out what it is.
I strongly agree with the latter part of this statement. To me this implies the impetus lies with the student; ultimately, it is up to the individual to make their art come alive for them and that means taking whatever it is they're learning and then applying it actively (finding how it can be effective/useful).
Learning the cultural/traditional/"whatever" approach includes more than simply waza. Look at uchideshi, which I've always thought epitomize the "student of the way." They often spend more time doing non-martial training than martial training. There's an intangible, social quality, much of which has to do with being sesitive to your surroundings so you can respond to them with precision and potency. In terms of self-defense, I almost think this kind of sensitivity makes physical technique moot. Being mentally aware will protect a person far more often than being physically aware will...as I see it anyway.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:41 PM   #270
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
But, when you see a judo throw, it still looks like a judo throw.
There are wrestling throws that look like Judo throws. The Judo guys didn't invent hips.

Heck, I've seen a 12 year old with zero Judo knowledge grab another kid by the collar and sweep him. That looked like a Judo throw.
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Old 10-04-2007, 06:48 PM   #271
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Mazhar Dardari wrote: View Post
Great Michael, but remember the thinking in 1922 different now,
we not Talk abut history or wrong thinking, we talk abut Effective Exercises and How can we defend ourselves in a practical way, We along The Platform for Osensei, like that aikido Continue and in 2030 We will be history.

Domo
Sensei,

Aikido has many styles. After reviewing your videos your style is not that different from the many flavors of Aikido I have experianced or the style I currently practice. The folks who complain about Aikido's effectiveness or Martial intent need only look at thier own training for the answers. It's a straw man argument in the very least. As a good mentor has always said "Remember when point a finger at someone or something three of your own fingers are pointing back at you."

I wish you all the best in your efforts to improve on your technique.

Aikido's future is secure.

Respectfully,

William Hazen
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:47 PM   #272
CNYMike
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Interesting thoughts, but you make it sound like the culture and clothes and stuff are what people fall in love with .....
No, but they are all part of the package. If you tear too much of that out, it's not what it was anymore. And notice I put this generically;you can apply this to any martial art.
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:52 PM   #273
CNYMike
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
.... Aikido was never meant to be tied down to one set of principles, frozen in time .....
Yes, O Sensei said change and growth are part of Aikido. His early students were all different from them and different from each other. That's true today; two senseis in the same organization can be different from each other and their teacher(s).

But I still think there are read lines you don't cross. At some point, if you tear out too much, you've lost more than you game. Nor than do I think that O Sensei's desire that Aikido not be frozen in time be a license to do whatever.

Quote:
.... Aikido for some will be nothing more than technique, leaving the tradition for the history books, and that's OK for some ....
Yeah, but that doesn't mean their view of Aikido is the only one that's right.
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Old 10-05-2007, 12:06 AM   #274
CNYMike
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Mazhar Dardari wrote: View Post
Great Michael, but remember the thinking in 1922 different now,
we not Talk abut history or wrong thinking, we talk abut Effective Exercises and How can we defend ourselves in a practical way, We along The Platform for Osensei, like that aikido Continue and in 2030 We will be history.

Domo
Not sure what you're trying to say. If it's that Aikido will be gone by 2030 if it doesn't "adapt," I don't agree with that, because if it was true it would have happened already. Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Ninjitsu, all rode their waves of popular interest over the past 50 years; I believe TKD is, in fact, the most popular martial art in the world! So now MMA rules the roost, but if Aikido survived the other "competition" as is, why not this? It doesn't look as if each craze results with people abandning whatever arts that they've been doing and going to the latest "in" thing, leaving thei old schools to rot, because the old schools don'tgo out of business when something new pops up. True, people move between systems for various reasons, but some might start in Aikido and go somewhere else, and some might come to Aikido from elsewhere.

If it was something else, mea culpa.
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Old 10-05-2007, 02:06 AM   #275
mazhar dardari
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Sensei,

Aikido has many styles. After reviewing your videos your style is not that different from the many flavors of Aikido I have experianced or the style I currently practice. The folks who complain about Aikido's effectiveness or Martial intent need only look at thier own training for the answers. It's a straw man argument in the very least. As a good mentor has always said "Remember when point a finger at someone or something three of your own fingers are pointing back at you."

I wish you all the best in your efforts to improve on your technique.

Aikido's future is secure.

Respectfully,

William Hazen
You know William, I am working for develop techniques not for inventing techniques to be more realistic and effective , for this you see my style like the many flavors of Aikido, and simply if I make big difference Will not to be aikido.

Thank you William and I wish you success
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