Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-21-2005, 09:56 AM   #1
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Nope. I can support it with source books by Ueshiba K., Gozo Shioda, and others. I.e., your assertion was limited and did not mention something as basic as tenkan, which is mentioned as an equally key component in available source material by accepted experts in the field.


Just as an aside, do you connote real expertise with "time spent practicing"? I happen to know great numbers of people who have "many years of practice" yet who couldn't find their bum with both hands when their pants are down and the lights are on. No implication of disrespect to your teacher, of course.


I didn't criticise and dismiss Aikido... I criticised and dismissed the too-prevalent western practice that is called Aikido. It's generally useless on many levels, except for role playing, social agendae, cooperative exercise, etc.


Would you be willing to hazard a guess about what percentage of western Aikido is martially effective? I think you're confusing my comments, as I noted above.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Point 1.... My assertion was that at the core of aikido is irimi and atemi. Dig a bit deeper into those books of yours and somewhere along the line you'll find this is pretty much a direct quote from O'sensei. Why would I wish to mention tenkan at this stage? It wasn't relevant to my post. If I limited my assertion it was by choice.Don't attempt to discredit my points by mentioning things I didn't mention. You'd be here all day if you did that....

Point 2. Do I connote real expertise with time spent on the mat? Do you? It is down to the individual. Pierre Chassang is an absolute legend. I hold him in the highest regard and merely quote his time spent on the mat to give an indication of his experience.

This thread is not about that experience - If it were I would be lavishing praise on the gifts that he has given us

I also know many people that have spent many years on the mat that could not fight their way out of the wettest of paper bags.

PC is as far as you can get from that category. In terms of life he has experienced like many of his generation the full horrors of war. It remains with him I am sure yet he has always been an absolute inspiration aikido wise.

I'd also say it is a strength of aikido that all can practice it - not just the natural fighters. I digress so back to the point.

Point 3... aikido is generally useless? Useless for what? you average 6.57 post per day on something that you consider useless? why? It strikes me that you see nothing in aikido and wish to knock it for everyone else. I find that a bit sad.

Point 4 ..Would I be willing to guess about what percentage of western aikido is martially effective? Nope - I couldn't give a monkeys...It would be the most meaningless statistic anyone had ever scraped up. Do enlighten me with your version though ...and don't forget to substantiate it with your source book.

I like what I do. I rate what I practice. I dont waste my time criticising others. If they come to me I'll teach them. If I get access to someone better that me I'll learn from them.

I'm not confusing your comments...but I get the feeling you'd like me to.

With respect

D
 
Old 03-21-2005, 07:31 PM   #2
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
Point 1.... My assertion was that at the core of aikido is irimi and atemi. Dig a bit deeper into those books of yours and somewhere along the line you'll find this is pretty much a direct quote from O'sensei.
I can't find it. Can you provide the cite, please?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 03-22-2005, 03:01 AM   #3
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I can't find it. Can you provide the cite, please?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Sure...I'm at work right now so may need to dig through my own library at home unless I can dig it out of the web.
 
Old 03-22-2005, 05:24 AM   #4
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I can't find it. Can you provide the cite, please?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
As promised...Am still at work so am not 100% certain of title...but believe this is from 'Aikido - Etiquette and Transmission'.

Its certainly from Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei.

Quote:
Tamura wrote:
IRIMI

The Irimi used in Aikido, the law of Irimi, is the root of Aikido. It will be recalled that O Sensel transferred into Aikido the law of Irimi which he learned by the profound study of the Art of the Spear.

The character Iri describes the idea of passing the entrance of a house, to enter it or to be invited into it. The character Mi gives the idea of a child in its mother's womb with the sense of completeness of flesh, bone and blood. Therefore Mi equals body and lrimi, to put ones own body in the body of the opponent. Following the method of the spear, the word Irimi is used to describe the action of penetrating victoriously to the interior of the guard of an adversary armed with a weapon longer than your own when you are armed with a sword or a dagger or even when one is unarmed.

When two forces move in an opposite direction, the force which results is the sum of the two forces. Irimi is the use of this result and its relation to ones own position at the moment of meeting.

We call Irimi Issoku the entry of a step to the side of an adversary. With a profile guard, you are in the position to allow lrimi, attacking the adversary by sending back the force of his attack without using your own force.

Explained mechanically, it is very easy to understand. Do not forget however, that in reality Aite is living and that everything does not work according to theory, especially when he is better armed than you.

With ones bare hands or with a weapon shorter than your opponents, to enter the interior of your opponent's guard or to oppose him with force, you must judge exactly the Ma Ai despite the changing position of Aite. This is normal and needs no further explanation. More important is to forget his body, to enter and pierce and be pierced, to enter without the slightest hesitation.

You press Aite with your mental power to the point where you can contain the attack; taking his attack, using it, you enter!

Accordingly, you will have the feeling of enveloping the adversary, becoming at one with him. He himself will come into your interior. This is the lrimi of Aikido.

and this....

Quote:
Tamura wrote:
ATEMI

For many people today, the work Atemi describes the punch of Karate, because in Karate the object of training is to destroy the adversary with a punch or a kick.

I am writing this chapter because no-one believes that there is Atemi in the study of Aikido.

Certainly in actual practice, Atemi has been eliminated in order to avoid the risk of injuring the beginner, to prevent reliance on the Atemi to the detriment of the technique and to prevent students with the wrong idea misusing it when they have progressed with the technique.

Therefore those who claim that there is no Atemi in Aikido know nothing about Aikido.

O Sensei, defining Aikido says:

"Aikido is lrimi and Atemi"


All Aikido techniques include Atemi.

Etymologically, Ateru expresses the idea of estimating and evaluating with precision the area and value of a field. By extension it means; "to place exactly"; "to fall exactly on the desired spot", to the centre of a target for example. To the notion of estimating and evaluating is added the idea of success.

Mi means the body. In ancient Budo, Atemi consisted of striking the adversary's vital points to cause loss of consciousness or death. To wound superficially or to break a bone was not Atemi.

In Aikido, Atemi is used to dominate the will of the attacker, to cause a softening of his vital points, to disturb his concentration and to stop his intended action.

From this soft Atemi we pass to Atemi which causes unconsciousness of death. It is good to study with an idea of using such techniques against a knife attack. Obviously the work must include study of the points of re-animation. If you study acupuncture in the form that has recently been developed I hope that you will understand that the points which can bring about healing can also cause death. This is a good example that shows that in everything there is Ura and Omote.

When you have reached a high level of study it will be good for you to discover during practice the possibility of placing here or there an Atemi.


There ya go...a little more than the one liner I started with but hopefully that adds interest.

D
 
Old 03-22-2005, 05:56 AM   #5
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Then you agree with me that mentioning someone's time on the mat with any implications of expertise is a waste, then.
Partially...On this occasion I mentioned PC experience to give some background on who he is.

I'll tenkan here and go back to my original point which was that it was PC in the main who has explained to me that the core of aikido is irimi and atemi. I've provided a reference to the source of this so hopefully you can accept this.


Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Me, too. I know people that think they can fight who can't. We both know many people, it seems. Why did you deliberately leave off my clarification about "western" Aikido in such a way to imply that I was talking about traditional Aikido? I said:

I didn't criticise and dismiss Aikido... I criticised and dismissed the too-prevalent western practice that is called Aikido. It's generally useless on many levels, except for role playing, social agendae, cooperative exercise, etc.
Who defines western practice? In my experience no two instructors are indentical. Each tries their best to interpret aikido and teach it. Some are good. Some are not. To loosely throw a label out such as 'western' aikido is for me somewhat unacceptable.

We have similar labels in use in the UK...sport budo for instance.

My issue is that it is a sweeping judgement....If you don't like the way something is done then fine. Is there any benefit in sniping at those that are different? If they see what they want in their chosen training method whose to criticise? How perfect are the rest of us?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:

It was the topic that you jumped in on, though....
I think its clear what topic I jumped in on...but now that you piqued my interest ...lets have that statistic and source.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Good for you. Aikido is fortunate to have someone like you in it.
Thank you. I hope those that train with me feel the same.
 
Old 03-22-2005, 08:00 AM   #6
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
Partially...On this occasion I mentioned PC experience to give some background on who he is.

I'll tenkan here and go back to my original point which was that it was PC in the main who has explained to me that the core of aikido is irimi and atemi. I've provided a reference to the source of this so hopefully you can accept this.
Hmmmm. Not so fast. Your original assertion was:

Those that look at the core of aikido will view the development of irimi and atemi as the underlying theme of their aikido (perhaps this should go on the without this no aikido thread).

When I questioned this, you attributed it to O-Sensei, but you have yet to provide any reference from O-Sensei or anyone else that says the core is irimi and atemi. In a recent post you attempted to shift the blame to me for even raising the question about things you didn't mention. No one is cavilling with the idea that irimi and atemi are core parts of Aikido. My comment is that there are other core parts... an idea that you seemed to dismiss at first. Your quote about the importance of irimi and atemi did not put them as the 2 core ingredients you originally indicated they were, nor was the quote even from O-Sensei.

I'm puzzled in trying to decide what it is you're trying to say, frankly.. So far it appears that you're simply presenting your teacher as an ultimate authority in Aikido while carping about the way I post that displeases you. I thought you had some gem of wisdom about the core of Aikido that I'd never encountered, but apparently not. I think we're at a dead end.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 03-22-2005, 08:11 AM   #7
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hmmmm. Not so fast. Your original assertion was:

Those that look at the core of aikido will view the development of irimi and atemi as the underlying theme of their aikido (perhaps this should go on the without this no aikido thread).

When I questioned this, you attributed it to O-Sensei, but you have yet to provide any reference from O-Sensei or anyone else that says the core is irimi and atemi. In a recent post you attempted to shift the blame to me for even raising the question about things you didn't mention. No one is cavilling with the idea that irimi and atemi are core parts of Aikido. My comment is that there are other core parts... an idea that you seemed to dismiss at first. Your quote about the importance of irimi and atemi did not put them as the 2 core ingredients you originally indicated they were, nor was the quote even from O-Sensei.

I'm puzzled in trying to decide what it is you're trying to say, frankly.. So far it appears that you're simply presenting your teacher as an ultimate authority in Aikido while carping about the way I post that displeases you. I thought you had some gem of wisdom about the core of Aikido that I'd never encountered, but apparently not. I think we're at a dead end.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
You asked for my source. My source is Tamura Sensei. His credentials are freely available.

Its there in black and white.

O Sensei, defining Aikido says:

"Aikido is lrimi and Atemi"

Shifting blame? see it any way you like.

You called me on my source. I've stumped up.

I called you for your statistic...nothing in return bar refusal to acknowledge what is there for all to see.

Indeed - a dead end.

D
 
Old 03-22-2005, 08:26 AM   #8
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
You asked for my source. My source is Tamura Sensei. His credentials are freely available.

Its there in black and white.

O Sensei, defining Aikido says:

"Aikido is lrimi and Atemi"

Shifting blame? see it any way you like.

You called me on my source. I've stumped up.
So a quote by Tamura attributing a comment to O-Sensei is, in your mind, a valid source for you to give direct attribution to O-Sensei? I think I'll pass on this one.
Quote:
I called you for your statistic...nothing in return bar refusal to acknowledge what is there for all to see.
What statistic did I claim? I offered a general opinion, and very clearly so if you'll go look, so your demand for a statistic is childish. If you want to go on a public forum and take a stand implying you think western Aikido is pretty realistic martial arts, I'm not going to get in your way. It's puzzling why you want to argue that point, though, given the easily obtainable consensus. Go on rec.martial-arts and tell everyone that you think Aikido is an effective martial art, if you'd like to see where you stand. You'll probably get a reasonable number of direct personal challenges.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 03-22-2005, 08:47 AM   #9
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So a quote by Tamura attributing a comment to O-Sensei is, in your mind, a valid source for you to give direct attribution to O-Sensei? I think I'll pass on this one.
Do what you like. Its good enough for me.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
What statistic did I claim? I offered a general opinion, and very clearly so if you'll go look, so your demand for a statistic is childish.
Yawn...so there is no such statistic?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:

If you want to go on a public forum and take a stand implying you think western Aikido is pretty realistic martial arts, I'm not going to get in your way. It's puzzling why you want to argue that point, though, given the easily obtainable consensus. Go on rec.martial-arts and tell everyone that you think Aikido is an effective martial art, if you'd like to see where you stand. You'll probably get a reasonable number of direct personal challenges.
I probably would.

As I stated previously I couldn't give a monkeys for the opinions of those to ignorant to see whats in front of them.

Having read these contributions of yours and many of your other posts you may well fit that category.

D
 
Old 03-22-2005, 01:18 PM   #10
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Equitable?

Tamura sensei is a fairly credible source with respect to what O-sensei said about aikido as far as I'm concerned.

It's not like he cited someone's _opinion paper_ on rape as support for the "solid ground" he stood on based on "facts". That would make him way less credible in my opinion.

Rob
 
Old 03-22-2005, 10:10 PM   #11
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,122
Offline
Re: Atemi and Irimi

Well, Mike, looks you don't know who is N.Tamura sensei ........ooopps. Too bad. This guy is presently probably most sophisticated aikidoka in the World.
at the time, O sensei = aikido. Today, N.Tamura sensei = aikido.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
 
Old 03-22-2005, 10:28 PM   #12
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Tamura sensei is a fairly credible source with respect to what O-sensei said about aikido as far as I'm concerned.
It's like a bad dream... someone says "A" said something and I ask for the cite... then they say "B" says "A" said it so it must be true. Obviously this is a different planet from the forums I normally deal in. Maybe this is why Aikido is popular among some people... the modes of proof are different?

Mike
 
Old 03-22-2005, 11:56 PM   #13
JayRhone
Location: St. George, UT
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 44
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi and Irimi

"O-Sensei would often thunder, "These techniques are only for health! What Aikido is about is spiritual."
-Robert Frager (Remembering O-Sensei, Pg. 21) Edited by Susan Perry ;0)

Be the water, not the rock
 
Old 03-23-2005, 01:05 AM   #14
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: Japan, Kodaira
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 760
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Atemi and Irimi

Well, I am nobody, but I will add to the pie and boldly say:

"I think irimi and atemi are a very important part of the core of Aikido."

No one told me, I just picked up on it after years of training. They are very important to me and if someone says otherwise it matters to me not a micron.

But it would be nice to hear that Ueshiba himself said it was so. Did he say so?

 
Old 03-23-2005, 03:21 AM   #15
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It's like a bad dream... someone says "A" said something and I ask for the cite... then they say "B" says "A" said it so it must be true. Obviously this is a different planet from the forums I normally deal in. Maybe this is why Aikido is popular among some people... the modes of proof are different?

Mike
You still chirping on?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Nope. I can support it with source books by Ueshiba K., Gozo Shioda, and others
Whats good for the goose is not good for the gander eh?

You called me...you got an answer.

At least have the good grace to accept it even if you don't like it.

Last edited by Dazzler : 03-23-2005 at 03:23 AM.
 
Old 03-23-2005, 06:40 AM   #16
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Wink Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It's like a bad dream... someone says "A" said something and I ask for the cite... then they say "B" says "A" said it so it must be true.
As a matter of fact, you didn't ask for a proof. You asked for a citation from books that were known to have different authors than O-sensei himself.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Obviously this is a different planet from the forums I normally deal in. Maybe this is why Aikido is popular among some people... the modes of proof are different?
I'm suprised you'd open the door here about criticising the way people are in a forum. I will point out that when you catch people being a little off _here_, you've posted things like "I'm not going to let you off that easily" or some nonsense about 'how they now stand corrected in a public forum for all to see' - yet you've make many mistakes too. No one does that in the other forums I am on. I also notice that you've said just as many passive aggressive things as you accuse others of (which looks to me like a major case projection) - but you've put a winking emoticon and say that you were just saying it in jest. The problem I have with this is:
1) There are some people who would have positive contributions, but they maybe just are not up to having to deal with your forum behavior. So I miss out on their contributions because of your behavior.
2)You actually have enough good and funny things to say to merit all of the positive attention you want.

No one on the other forums I am has behaved like you. Maybe they are genuinly interested in making positive contributions. (<-- note the wink, which apparently means I can say any nasty thing I want without having any responsibiliy since the wink means it was in jest of course )

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 03-23-2005 at 06:52 AM.
 
Old 03-23-2005, 07:37 AM   #17
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
As a matter of fact, you didn't ask for a proof. You asked for a citation from books that were known to have different authors than O-sensei himself.



I'm suprised you'd open the door here about criticising the way people are in a forum. I will point out that when you catch people being a little off _here_, you've posted things like "I'm not going to let you off that easily" or some nonsense about 'how they now stand corrected in a public forum for all to see' - yet you've make many mistakes too. No one does that in the other forums I am on. I also notice that you've said just as many passive aggressive things as you accuse others of (which looks to me like a major case projection) - but you've put a winking emoticon and say that you were just saying it in jest. The problem I have with this is:
1) There are some people who would have positive contributions, but they maybe just are not up to having to deal with your forum behavior. So I miss out on their contributions because of your behavior.
2)You actually have enough good and funny things to say to merit all of the positive attention you want.

No one on the other forums I am has behaved like you. Maybe they are genuinly interested in making positive contributions. (<-- note the wink, which apparently means I can say any nasty thing I want without having any responsibiliy since the wink means it was in jest of course )

Rob
Rob, note how I use "someone" and compared to the "you, you, you" in the above post. Also note that a direct attribution to O-Sensei was used and I politely did my own search first before I asked for the customary citation for that *direct* attribution. Rather than admit that the very normal call for a citation was met incorrectly, you're off again into how it's my fault. Let's stop. You've done it too many times. You were needlessly involving yourself in the request for citation anyway.

Mike
 
Old 03-23-2005, 08:02 AM   #18
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Atemi and Irimi

Mike

Heres what was said

"Point 1.... My assertion was that at the core of aikido is irimi and atemi. Dig a bit deeper into those books of yours and somewhere along the line you'll find this is pretty much a direct quote from O'sensei. "

Fair play - you asked for evidence ...a cite.

This has been followed by evidence that this came from Tamura Sensei . I believe this is ...using your own terminology...source material by accepted experts in the field.

Had I said this came from 'a man in the pub' then your a said that b said argument might hold water.

It doesn't.

You are still dribbling on about very normal calls for citation being met incorrectly.

You quite like to argue long after a point has been dealt with it seems.

D
 
Old 03-23-2005, 08:25 AM   #19
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi and Irimi

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
Mike

Heres what was said

"Point 1.... My assertion was that at the core of aikido is irimi and atemi. Dig a bit deeper into those books of yours and somewhere along the line you'll find this is pretty much a direct quote from O'sensei. "

Fair play - you asked for evidence ...a cite.

This has been followed by evidence that this came from Tamura Sensei . I believe this is ...using your own terminology...source material by accepted experts in the field.
When you directly attribute a saying to someone, a citation doesn't mean a secondary source for the remark. That's out of the picture entirely. You're obviously not used to the convention, so let me explain it, using this current example.

You say Ueshiba says something, it's important because it goes to the core of what Aikido really is. IF what you say is true and important, though, "irimi and atemi" should be noted in other credible books as the basis of Aikido, which is what you were saying they were. It's NOT in other books in that manner, but the 2 are listed with a group of other basics, like tenkan, etc. Go look... I suggested that. Still, to give you the benefit of the doubt, O-Sensei MAY have said this, although it's odd for such an important point to be missed by Ueshiba K., Tohei, and a number of others. But rather than finding the citation, you find a citation from Tamura *attributing* a remark to Ueshiba. That's a totally different matter because while some people will equate Tamura to maybe Jesus Christ, others will say things like "Oh... Tamura was known in some circles for mis-attributing things". One never knows... and one doesn't want to go off on that tangent, either.

So a secondary citation doesn't help in the search for information. All I have now is the *possibility* that Ueshiba said something like that to Tamura but strangely didn't say it to other uchideshi (do you believe O-Sensei would miss telling something so important to his own son?).... *unless* he was simply lumping ALL entries, including tenkan, into the word "irimi". But we don't know that. And so on. In other words, if you're logically approaching information about a topic, a secondary attribution isn't a sufficient information source, particularly when your whole thesis depends on it. Go back and look.... the suggestions for tenkan, etc., were politely put and the rejection of those ideas was by you. People seem to miss the preliminaries in some of these discussions, but there's always a place where the problems started.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 03-23-2005, 08:35 AM   #20
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Wink Re: Equitable?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You were needlessly involving yourself in the request for citation anyway.
That is the nature of a forum. I was actually after this:

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Let's stop.
Excellent. Thank you. Positive contributions only. Agreed.

Hey I thought you were stopping?! And I thought Tohei and the former Doshu would also be a seconardy source as well. Silly me...

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 03-23-2005 at 08:42 AM.
 
Old 03-23-2005, 09:07 AM   #21
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi and Irimi

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Well, Mike, looks you don't know who is N.Tamura sensei ........ooopps. Too bad. This guy is presently probably most sophisticated aikidoka in the World.
at the time, O sensei = aikido. Today, N.Tamura sensei = aikido.
In which case, if Tamura IS Aikido, then we don't need any statements about Aikido from O-Sensei, do we? But when someone says "O-Sensei said.... " that's not the same as "Tamura says O-Sensei said..." It's a convention that you follow as a means to bring order to chaos, Szczepan. It's looking more and more like IF the attribution to O-Sensei is correct, it quite probably was a general statement along the lines of "Aikido is entering and striking" and deliberately glosses over any ideas of blending, timing, etc., which we know to be important. Technically ALL martial arts are simply approaching and striking, so it's not a very revelatory idea... I thought there might be something important along the lines of the specific irimi of Aikido, etc., but I guess not.
I was following the idea, Szczepan, not trying to engage in a discussion of who is who in the Aikido world.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 03-23-2005, 09:09 AM   #22
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Atemi and Irimi

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
When you directly attribute a saying to someone, a citation doesn't mean a secondary source for the remark. That's out of the picture entirely. You're obviously not used to the convention, so let me explain it, using this current example.

You say Ueshiba says something, it's important because it goes to the core of what Aikido really is. IF what you say is true and important, though, "irimi and atemi" should be noted in other credible books as the basis of Aikido, which is what you were saying they were. It's NOT in other books in that manner, but the 2 are listed with a group of other basics, like tenkan, etc. Go look... I suggested that. Still, to give you the benefit of the doubt, O-Sensei MAY have said this, although it's odd for such an important point to be missed by Ueshiba K., Tohei, and a number of others. But rather than finding the citation, you find a citation from Tamura *attributing* a remark to Ueshiba. That's a totally different matter because while some people will equate Tamura to maybe Jesus Christ, others will say things like "Oh... Tamura was known in some circles for mis-attributing things". One never knows... and one doesn't want to go off on that tangent, either.

So a secondary citation doesn't help in the search for information. All I have now is the *possibility* that Ueshiba said something like that to Tamura but strangely didn't say it to other uchideshi (do you believe O-Sensei would miss telling something so important to his own son?).... *unless* he was simply lumping ALL entries, including tenkan, into the word "irimi". But we don't know that. And so on. In other words, if you're logically approaching information about a topic, a secondary attribution isn't a sufficient information source, particularly when your whole thesis depends on it. Go back and look.... the suggestions for tenkan, etc., were politely put and the rejection of those ideas was by you. People seem to miss the preliminaries in some of these discussions, but there's always a place where the problems started.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Bravo!

Excellent attempt...as I said you love to argue.

I said what I said...you called me.

Now your trying to to question my source which is Tamura.

As I said previously this is good enough for me. The core or the Aikido that I try to practice is irimi atemi. This is what I've been taught and what I hope to work with.

You can bang on as much as you like in an attempt to smokescreen the facts ...but I've provided my source and you clearly don't like it.

This is your problem not mine.

D
 
Old 03-23-2005, 09:24 AM   #23
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,835
Offline
Re: Atemi and Irimi

This thread has become entirely unconstructive. Thread closed.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Atemi and Irimi thread closed - WHY? eyrie Announcements & Feedback 1 03-23-2005 06:45 PM
Technically proficient/Tactically sound stern9631 Training 19 08-04-2004 01:07 AM
atemi kocakb General 12 07-21-2004 02:40 PM
O Sensei starts "No Atemi" Aikido? tedehara Techniques 89 03-18-2004 08:28 AM
Atemi DavidM General 61 06-24-2002 10:04 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:10 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate