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Old 12-24-2004, 09:40 PM   #76
Rocky Izumi
Dojo: GUST Aikido Club
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

Quote:
Mark Chiappetta wrote:
...and why would one bother "choking the chicken" if one could hit it with a bokuto.

Mark Chiappetta
Reminds me a of joke about getting ketsup out of a bottle.

Rock
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Old 02-27-2005, 10:04 PM   #77
McConnell
Dojo: The Hut (ESTA - US Headquarter)
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

Quote:
Ruth McWilliam wrote:
That's a very polite way of putting it!

I've seen how Mr Ellis demonstrates his 'Aikido' and it's very rough and uncontrolled. Your practice really does reflect your personality and beliefs.

What's sad is that he instills his confrontational attitude into his students, and openly says that his students could wipe the floor with anybody else's students..

I feel very sorry for those who have lost the way of Aikido and just want to fight.

Ruth
Uncontrolled? And when was it that you saw Ellis perform his Aikido? You might want to clarify that a bit more.

As for me I personally sat down with Sensei Rogers at his house, who is my instructor of 3yrs to date, to watch converted 8mm films of Sensei Ellis and Sensei Goodwin (among others, including Poole)(http://www.geocities.com/britishaiki...ers006-big.jpg) perform Aikido. It was Sensei Goodwin who was a bit of a sadistic with knives and swords (lopped off his ear one time practicing his sword) attacked Sensei Ellis with a large knife seen flashing in those films. I watched it on DVD while it played on the computer. Sensei Ellis, everytime, was able to put Sensei Goodwin down on the mat. Sensei Goodwin was never able to stick it to Sensei Ellis and would for once hoped to stab him in those Aikido demostrations. Even Ellis' wife couldn't bear watching it. And yet it was Sensei Goodwin who told Ellis' wife that he was trying to stab the SOB, much to her horror.

And, oh, the knife thing? Go here:
http://thehutushq.blogspot.com/2005/...izes-with.html

And you'll see the actual Gi that Sensei Ellis wore when the knife went through it.


As for "uncontrolled", nothing in the films or in person suggest that Sensei Ellis' actions were "uncontrolled." Rough, yes, for the poor guy who insist on wanting to break his own arm (which it did happen to one guy twice).

If a technique works, then that's all the control you need because that could mean the difference between life and death, or getting hurt.
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Old 02-27-2005, 10:19 PM   #78
AaronFrancher
 
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

Unfortunately, in present times, many of the martial arts have been turned into sports. Therefore, are no longer "martial" nor are they any longer an "art". However, some have tried to maintain the old ways and modify them to fit new day situations. But those are still the martial art they began as. Where as the new competition driven forms no longer classify in the same category.

That is not to say that competition is bad way of practicing, it just shouldn't be the schools main objective to win trophies.

A martial art is way to train the body into a controlled weapon. And a martial artist is the embodiment of that.

Just like a painted masterpiece, a martial artist takes years to shape and form each contour and each piece of his/her essence. And even when we are finished age will also shape our art, our masterpiece, into what it will be when we die.

Last edited by AaronFrancher : 02-27-2005 at 10:25 PM.

It is not simply a fight to the finish, it is knowing what to do once you have won.
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Old 02-28-2005, 03:54 AM   #79
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

I think what I read of the article was not insulting...Aikido is not an art of war (martial art) in the strictest of meanings. I learn both aikijujitsu and aikido at the same time when I learn how to throw people who grab my finger, for not only do I learn how to hurt them, but how to not hurt them. Perhaps the "dancing" form is not as self-protecting and perhaps it is. It's is really all about a proper state of mind. I conducted a very good aiki technique long before I learned what aikido was, so really it's not some discovered thing. The ability is already within us and if we have the proper awareness, we'll use it. The benefit to aikido is the codification it provides...the way it describes things for us. I was lucky when I threw my much larger friend to the ground as a young boy. In practicing aikido though, I step away from the realm of luck and walk toward a concious decision to increase my awareness.
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Old 02-28-2005, 05:40 AM   #80
bogglefreak20
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

I would definitely be "labeled" a dancer judging from the point of view in this article. However, I'm not at all offended by the author's "definition" of Aikido being an Art. Why wouldn't it be Art? And why would I be offended if someone said to me: "All you do at that dojo of yours 3 times a week is artistic work." From my point of view, that's a compliment not an insult.

Regardless of so many different labels (that, to be honest, tell a lot more about people who say them then they do about Aikido itself) I'm totally satisfied with training in "something" that makes me feel good both physically and mentally.
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Old 02-28-2005, 05:54 AM   #81
bogglefreak20
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

Quote:
Kevin Temple wrote:
Capoeira looks like crazy dancing, but as far as I know, its decidedly martial.

I'm not sure of the roots of capoeira, but i definitely know some people that train in it as a form of art. Dance. Period. No martial aspects added. The fact that there is a definite accent on the importance of rhythm in capoeira allows an observer to see it as a dance.

And, by analogy, there is a huge accent on the importance of the right timing and movement in accordance with your partner in Aikido. So you can definitely see Aikido as a dance.

Last edited by bogglefreak20 : 02-28-2005 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 02-28-2005, 07:39 AM   #82
David Humm
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

Having spoken to Ellis Sensei several times regarding his definition of "dance" aikido, I can assure everyone he appreciates and understands the importance of blending, timing and everything else that makes aikido function however, I think its fair to say that this appreciation does not extend to aikido which is practiced/studied outside of any 'martial' resemblance hence, he holds the opinion that Aikido studied in this way has no more martial value than dance.

One must appreciate that Ellis Sensei holds very strong opinions about the martial art he's been involved in since 1956/7 (can't remember which) It is obvious from training with Ellis/Eastman or any of the other direct students of Abbe Sensei, that "MARTIAL" was very much at the forefront of the training. Regardless of one's opinions about "the good 'ole days" and whether instruction then was good, bad or indifferent, the training was 'harder' than *much* of what is practiced in the UK today.

With regards to Ellis Sensei's supposed 'outspoken' nature. I say it's a shame more people aren't prepared to speak their mind. There's too much sugar coating in the world in general and I'm of the opinion that many individuals are often unprepared to hear often painful truth when it exists.

Yes Ellis Sensei speaks his mind, yes people have been offended by his directness, No, Ellis Sensei does not intentionally offend, he simply says what's on his mind, truthfully and sincerely. When Ellis Sensei is wrong he will apologise as sincerely and he speaks.

Would Ellis Sensei work within a diplomatic corps? I think he'd last about 30 seconds, do you know exactly where you stand with him? ABSOLUTELY. Are we all the same? The answers obvious.

With regards to the "rough aikido" comment. I study Aikikai Aikido with the UKA; I've also studied under Ellis Sensei. Rough ? Not at all. Direct and powerful where atemi features as an integral part of the system - very much so. Each to their own I say. Train where you get the most from what you want out of it. Judge Ellis Sensei when you've experienced as wide variety of aikido as he has throughout the last 50 years.

Dave
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Old 03-01-2005, 05:41 AM   #83
bogglefreak20
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
With regards to Ellis Sensei's supposed 'outspoken' nature. I say it's a shame more people aren't prepared to speak their mind. There's too much sugar coating in the world in general and I'm of the opinion that many individuals are often unprepared to hear often painful truth when it exists.

Yes Ellis Sensei speaks his mind, yes people have been offended by his directness, No, Ellis Sensei does not intentionally offend, he simply says what's on his mind, truthfully and sincerely. When Ellis Sensei is wrong he will apologise as sincerely and he speaks.
With all due respect toward Ellis Sensei and yourself, I don't believe there is a single, one-and-only Truth to anything, let alone Aikido.
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Old 03-01-2005, 10:01 AM   #84
Mike Sigman
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

Quote:
Miha Sinkovec wrote:
With all due respect toward Ellis Sensei and yourself, I don't believe there is a single, one-and-only Truth to anything, let alone Aikido.
That is absolutely true.

Mike
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:06 PM   #85
David Humm
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

Quote:
Miha Sinkovec wrote:
With all due respect toward Ellis Sensei and yourself, I don't believe there is a single, one-and-only Truth to anything, let alone Aikido.
You may be right but then paradoxically how would we know if what you say is truthful thus correct?

The point I was attempting to make was that Ellis Sensei will openly speak his mind on aikido, issues which might otherwise be considered taboo or politically incorrect. Some people don't want to hear that and labeled him a trouble maker simply because he has the fortitude to openly stand his ground when most will quietly mutter, quibble, do or say nothing.

That is of course quite acceptable, we all have the right to listen and absorb (or not as the case may be) exactly what we want however, Ellis Sensei also has the right to say exactly what he feels appropriate.

Freedom of speech and expression of opinion are cornerstones of our society, I'd rather someone call me a ***** to my face and have the minerals to do so, I might not agree with them but you'd be assured of a degree of respect for being up front. Ellis Sensei is, I strongly suspect, of exactly the same mind. I think its fair to say there are those who simply can't hack that level of sincerity.

Kind regards to all

Dave
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:19 PM   #86
Mike Sigman
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
The point I was attempting to make was that Ellis Sensei will openly speak his mind on aikido, issues which might otherwise be considered taboo or politically incorrect. Some people don't want to hear that and labeled him a trouble maker simply because he has the fortitude to openly stand his ground when most will quietly mutter, quibble, do or say nothing.
I've never met Ellis Amdur personally, but I've read some of his stuff and corresponded with him occasionally.... in my opinion, his manner of honestly and openly discussing his opinions about various matters has been one of the redeeming and positive aspects of the whole Aikido community. I.e., a lot of people who dismiss Aikido's worth wind up having some respect for Aikido because of Ellis. He functionally knows and can demonstrate the topics he discusses, so right or wrong he's worth listening to. The issues need to be discussed; the personality aspects shouldn't be important.

My opinion, FWIW.

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:25 PM   #87
akiy
 
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I've never met Ellis Amdur personally
I believe the "Ellis sensei" mentioned is Henry Ellis, not Ellis Amdur. Henry Ellis wrote the article which started this entire thread.

-- Jun

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Old 03-01-2005, 01:37 PM   #88
David Humm
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I've never met Ellis Amdur personally, but I've read some of his stuff and corresponded with him occasionally.... in my opinion, his manner of honestly and openly discussing his opinions about various matters has been one of the redeeming and positive aspects of the whole Aikido community. I.e., a lot of people who dismiss Aikido's worth wind up having some respect for Aikido because of Ellis. He functionally knows and can demonstrate the topics he discusses, so right or wrong he's worth listening to. The issues need to be discussed; the personality aspects shouldn't be important.

My opinion, FWIW.

Mike Sigman
Wrong "Ellis" We are discussing Henry Ellis Principal Coach to ESTA and his article.

Kind regards

Dave
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:38 PM   #89
David Humm
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

Sorry Jun - "Ai-uchi" of postings me thinks

Dave
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:41 PM   #90
Mike Sigman
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
Wrong "Ellis" We are discussing Henry Ellis Principal Coach to ESTA and his article.
Oops... my bad.
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Old 03-01-2005, 04:37 PM   #91
Mike Collins
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Re: Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"

I think of myself as an Aikidope.
If I accidentally hit your teeth with my elbow and straighten your smile, would that make me an Aikidontist?

If I keep asking these questions, will I be considered an Aikidork?

Aikido or Aikidonot. There is no try.
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