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Old 03-01-2005, 09:46 AM   #51
Moses
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Re: Functional Ki Skills

Mike Sigman wrote:
So my first question is: "how do you explain the cause of the resistance the pusher-on-the-forearm feels?" in terms of what is actually causing that particular solidity?

I can't figure out how to do the fancy quote in a box?

Well from looking at the development of this thread, it seems that the discussion lays with its process, i.e. some form of path either mental and/or physical needed to deal with the reality of a push. My opinion is both have to be present.

Here is my thought at a possible explanation. Using the Chinese model of the micro/macro cosmic orbit is a simple and workable model for basic path relationships (up and down); understand I do not mean to imply it is limited or restricted only to this. As far as I can tell it seems that the "mind" is used largely in two ways:

1) the mind consciously adjusts the structure, "bones" for lack of a better word, and the musculature, i.e. creating a structure that is efficient in form, connected,and balanced.

2) again it seems that the mind acts consciously as a receptive control point moving (i.e. motor control typically left to the unconscious aspect of the mind) the incoming vectors along the prescribed paths, in this case into the ground.

It seems that in this case solidity comes not from pushing on a "strong" individual, which may be the case, but rather you are pushing into the ground, i.e. the individual simply acts as a conduit.
Any thoughts?
Moses

Last edited by Moses : 03-01-2005 at 09:49 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 03-01-2005, 10:10 AM   #52
Mike Sigman
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Re: Functional Ki Skills

Quote:
Moses Jenkins wrote:
I can't figure out how to do the fancy quote in a box?
Click on the little box in the lower right-hand corner of a post. Edit to suit. If you need secondary boxes, it's easy to form the HTML code with square brackets, and "QUOTE" in the first one, "/QUOTE" in the closing one.
Quote:
Well from looking at the development of this thread, it seems that the discussion lays with its process, i.e. some form of path either mental and/or physical needed to deal with the reality of a push. My opinion is both have to be present.

Here is my thought at a possible explanation. Using the Chinese model of the micro/macro cosmic orbit is a simple and workable model for basic path relationships (up and down); understand I do not mean to imply it is limited or restricted only to this. As far as I can tell it seems that the "mind" is used largely in two ways:

1) the mind consciously adjusts the structure, "bones" for lack of a better word, and the musculature, i.e. creating a structure that is efficient in form, connected,and balanced.

2) again it seems that the mind acts consciously as a receptive control point moving (i.e. motor control typically left to the unconscious aspect of the mind) the incoming vectors along the prescribed paths, in this case into the ground.

It seems that in this case solidity comes not from pushing on a "strong" individual, which may be the case, but rather you are pushing into the ground, i.e. the individual simply acts as a conduit.
Perfect. Actually, we use these "paths" every day, all the time, in minor ways as we push, pull, resist acceleration, etc. This is a specialized and deliberate use of a trick the body has in its repertoire; it is also often shifted into a very sophisticated version of the trick (i.e., like any skill, higher levels of usage can look almost magical). There is also a component of allowing the subconscious to meld into the trick so that the power increases. But basically, you stated it pretty well.

Mike
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:19 PM   #53
kironin
 
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Re: Functional Ki Skills

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Craig, I don't think those are good examples, particularly if you're implying that the complexity of physical and mathematical inferences in neutrino detection, etc., is paralleled by the subjective criteria of a "ki test". Without even approaching or rebutting that inference, we could rig some simple tests of static physics and vector analysis that would fairly clearly point to simple physics and kinesiology as causative agents rather than unquantifiable forces. Let's use Occam's Razor rather than assume an unwarranted complexity.
You are reading too much into what I said. I am saying that the physical test is a perfectly valid indirect method of taking a measure of the person's mind and body coordination. You are adding the complexity and unquantifiable forces to the discussion. I am not. However, there is a long history of
scientists using themselves as the detection or monitoring device in experiments and in some cases it still goes on so I don't think much of your point as long as there are reproduceable results by many observers. Subjective does not equate to wrong. Quantifying is not always needed to answer a question.

A while back I was reading a book by a very highly regarded neurologist. He spent some time making the point that in his years of experience he had found that the many simple physical tests he could do on a patient in a few minutes in his office were quite good at diagnosing the specific neuropathology. This simple quick indirect approach is considered is considered "old-fashioned" to new graduates who he said are becoming more reliant on high tech and not spending sufficient time to become well trained in these lo-tech methods. The problem was the hi-tech methods like MRI are indirect methods also with built-in assumptions that need to be well-understood but tend to be forgotten with all the nice pictures and numbers being spit of the computer. It's human nature to tend to forget that what you are looking at is not the actual thing you are trying to measure. It's a technological pitfall that people fall in to all the time.

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Old 03-01-2005, 01:26 PM   #54
kironin
 
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Re: Functional Ki Skills

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
There is also a component of allowing the subconscious to meld into the trick so that the power increases. But basically, you stated it pretty well.
Mike
"allowing" "the" "to meld" ?

I guess we need to have a discussion now of what we are defining as subsconscious.

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Old 03-01-2005, 01:43 PM   #55
Mike Sigman
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Re: Functional Ki Skills

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
You are reading too much into what I said. I am saying that the physical test is a perfectly valid indirect method of taking a measure of the person's mind and body coordination. You are adding the complexity and unquantifiable forces to the discussion. I am not.
Although I understand what you're saying and I generally agree, I don't agree completely. Of course you caveated by saying "measurement done properly", but that's the rub of these tests... there is often a subjective component to what is "proper". I remember once encountering some people who held an "immoveable" stance that included great rigidity. When I tried to delicately say I thought they were a little stiff, they were outraged and insisted that they were completely relaxed.

However, focusing back on your comments about mind and body coordination, why not give me your take on how something like the so-called "unbendable arm" works in relation to mind and body coordination and let's see if we can find a commonality of approach?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:59 PM   #56
Mike Sigman
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Re: Functional Ki Skills

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
I guess we need to have a discussion now of what we are defining as subsconscious.
Well, maybe that merits discussion, but not necessarily now, before we have some basis about the actual factors involved in "Ki tests". Insofar as I can tell, there isn't an actual accord about what is happening mechanically (other than a solid-feeling resistance, hopefully passive) and I've offered up the position that I'm not too concerned with the actual visualizations (whether the mind is empty, visualizes scenario A, or visualizes scenario B). I'm assuming that your subjective judgement of "measurements done properly" is pretty much in line with what I've seen at a few Ki-Aikido dojo's, which is generally in agreement with what I've also encountered among some fairly skilled Chinese practitioners.

Let's assume for the moment that we are generally talking about the same phenomenon and let's take the fairly general example of Tohei standing while someone pushes on his forearm. One of the first questions is, "given the same 'feel' to replicating that particular test, are there actually two different ways of doing it and arriving at the same results and 'feel'?". I'd like to suggest that such an instance is improbable. Would you agree?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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