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Old 04-04-2002, 04:04 PM   #26
bcole23
Dojo: Eagle Rock Aikido, Ammon, ID
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If atemi is done well, it's an integrated part of a technique, not something done on its own. Just as a technique if done just "on its own" without accompanying principles like kuzushi and timing......
Ah, all very true, however, my point of reference was the following..

Quote:
And in Yoshinkan at least we also learn a number of techniques which technically do or at least could initiate the fight (like using a front strike to force uke to throw up his arm(s) in defense so that we can then use this arm to control uke).
I'm saying that if you were to initiate the "fight" in this context, don't expect uke to just throw up his hands to block, as in this case, it's not a part of a technique but more of an initiation of the impending conflict.

When uke attacks, he's putting himself at a disadvantage by the mere act of attacking. It's unnatural. So by initiating the "fight", you're putting yourself in that situation. I'm not saying that atemi's aren't integral to Aikido, but applied in a manner such as to initiate the "fight", be careful what you ask for.

(I completely believe in taking the initiative, as seen in the taking the initiative topic, so don't get me wrong, but in getting someone to throw a punch at me, I have won the initiative. Initiative isn't always just the act of acting first.)
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Old 04-04-2002, 04:58 PM   #27
Erik
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Originally posted by Sascha Witt
First of all it comes down to timing once again. For even at a very fast attck there is a split second where uke's force is at maximum. If you catch that you can accelerate or reverse it. The problem in this case of course is catching it.
Actually, this is the last place you want to catch (don't like that word) in the context of a strike. Operating at this point will be far, far too late in my experience. You need to catch the "intent to strike" or "before the beginning", otherwise, good luck when operating at speed. At least I can't do it, or even come close at that point. Maybe I mistook your comment?

Quote:
Originally posted by Brandon Cole
In many MA, it's 'every strike is meant to kill' because they are taken from life and death times. However, in your average confrontation today you'll see more of the 'let's knock this guy/girl around the head a few times to gain an advantage so I can proceed to whomp them at my leisure without getting hurt myself'. So it's not the same ultra commited attacks that we see in Aikido and MA sparring. What do y'all do about someone that just doesn't come flying in, but uses feints, jabs, combinations, drunken boxing? If you say, "Use mai-ai and whatnot to get them to commit", nah, I'll just use the standard knife fighting technique of not trying to kill you but cutting you to pieces and breaking you down.
Brandon, you raise an excellent point from a certain perspective. I think in the context of pure street fighting there isn't so much of this. My belief is that in that environment it's determined fairly quickly often with a sucker punch, one person is overwhelmed or two people just flail. Personally, I don't see any reason to fight fair and I'm not particularly nasty.

However, in the context of trained fighters (again we have to define context) you will see this sort of thing and conventional Aikido training is poorly suited for this in my opinion (maybe rightly so). I see very little overt practice on spacing against a moving attacker (jiyu waza but not an everyday practice), feints, jabs, punch combinations, kicks, punch kick combinations or serious attempts to close for grappling/tackling purposes in most of the places I've practiced at or visited. It happens, but it's rare.
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Old 04-04-2002, 10:13 PM   #28
Sascha Witt
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Originally posted by bcole23
One small thing..

Against an attacker whose kung foo resembles the great Wong Fei Hong, an atemi to make uke throw up his hands will rarely if ever work. In Aikido there is no attack or defense, but in other MA, attack and defense are the same thing. So when you throw that atemi out there to make uke throw up his hands to block or what have you, expect a counter attack rather than a block.

Luckily, as you pointed out yourself fighters of Wong Fei Hong's calibre are not likely to go around beating up on people in everyday life.

The best thing to do is not to "expect" anything but act on what you get. Which you (will) learn in jiyu waza training.
Now how well this would work against a kung fu grandmaster (or any other high up martial artist) I really don't know.

The biggest mistake you can ever make is to believe yourself invincible because you study a martial art... and that is as true for aikido as it is for any other style.

Eric: I think you did understand me. From my (limited) understanding of aikido if you try and counter intend rather than action you would no longer use "real" aikido. From what I've been taught (or at least from my understanding of what I have been taught) uke or any opponent must be lured in and be fully comitted before you make your move. If you move too early your opponent (especially one trained in another art) can pull or redirect his attack or use it as a feint for a followup strike or whatever and you have nothing (except possibly a bloody nose).

So I think (and I'm hardly an authority here) you have to wait until the attacker goes beyond the point of no return, which generally is just a split second before he hits.

At this point in time I cannot do it either (but I can BS about it ) except sometimes in a very controlled environment when I know exactly what is coming. But I hope someday I will be able to do so "instinctively".

Last edited by Sascha Witt : 04-04-2002 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 04-05-2002, 03:25 AM   #29
Creature_of_the_id
 
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aikido works:
aikido is a set of principles, the principle of none resistance. If there is force you go around it, if you are not resisting anything then there is no fight and therefore no one looses.
aikido works

yours may not:
we each have our own limited experience of life and aikido, those experiences define how we move through life what choices we make.
we filter each experience through our own understanding and only see that which we have been trained to understand.
I have only learned limited techniques and movement. there are infinite numbers of ways of performing techniques, I can only do a limited number of those bcause I have only experienced and trained in them.
if i limit my options then I can only take a limited number of paths and dont always find the road of non resistance.
my aikido may not work in any given situation... the more I train, the more options I have and the less I need to resist

if I have faith in my movement and my technique and just move and adapt, then I can experience the lack of limitations within the moment and blend with anything that comes my way. as I have no longer restricted myself to set techniques of a martial art.. but instead a concept and a moment.

anyway, it makes sense in my head
"learn and forget"

"the net serves to catch the fish, forget the net.. take the fish
the trap serves to catch the rabbit, forget the trap... take the rabbit
Technique serves to catch the spirit, forget technique... take the spirit" - Andre Noquet 8th dan

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Old 04-05-2002, 09:18 AM   #30
akiy
 
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I think it's odd that a lot of people say that "unless uke attacks, aikido won't work." Whenever I hear this statement, I usually bring up the following two hypothetical situations.

1) What would you do if someone tried to attack your toddler child and not you?

2) What would you do if a person were blocking your way from someone abducting your child? Or blocked your only way out of a burning building?

I believe the concept of sen-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen very much apply in the case of aikido.

-- Jun

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Old 04-05-2002, 09:51 AM   #31
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sascha Witt
Eric: I think you did understand me. From my (limited) understanding of aikido if you try and counter intend rather than action you would no longer use "real" aikido. From what I've been taught (or at least from my understanding of what I have been taught) uke or any opponent must be lured in and be fully comitted before you make your move. If you move too early your opponent (especially one trained in another art) can pull or redirect his attack or use it as a feint for a followup strike or whatever and you have nothing (except possibly a bloody nose).

So I think (and I'm hardly an authority here) you have to wait until the attacker goes beyond the point of no return, which generally is just a split second before he hits.

At this point in time I cannot do it either (but I can BS about it ) except sometimes in a very controlled environment when I know exactly what is coming. But I hope someday I will be able to do so "instinctively".
Sascha, this is how I was taught but I find myself questioning this particular practice for a lot of reasons these days. If you can control the distance, if you can control the timing adjusting for speed, if you can control the circumstances, if you can control your bodies reaction to stress or if you have a significant skill differentiation this sort of thing becomes more possible. So, while I might not agree with your terminology/explanation I can accept the concept in principle I'm just not certain about execution outside of controlled circumstances. Personally, in a non-structured enviroment with dynamically changing distances (or if I can't control the distance--back against a wall or between parked cars) and angles I find controlling center, closing, atemi (as distraction) and the like much more Erik friendly.

Plus, if it takes decades (and at least in my case that's going to be required) I'm not sure it should qualify as working in a MA context. On the other hand, there may be some personal failing or teaching I've not seen, and so I've failed to grasp an essential part of aiki. In other words, my Aikido is incomplete and doesn't work.

I guess I would say that while I think the concept isn't meritless as such, by itself, I'm not convinced it's anywhere near enough, or, even close to enough.

Last edited by Erik : 04-05-2002 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 02-13-2005, 12:16 AM   #32
samurai_kenshin
 
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Re: Aikido works. Your aikido doesn't work.

Quote:
Andy Russo wrote:
It's called "training".
you may have heard that randori is a misproununciation of "runned-away"? You should hope never to need your aikido to "work" or "not work", but if you do...think of it as a randori
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Old 02-14-2005, 01:33 PM   #33
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido works. Your aikido doesn't work.

I've heard "No attack, no aikido" and I kind of believe it to a point. If someone is attacking your toddler, I think you have an animal right to hurt them to protect your young - so I don't think I'd be doing much aikido then anyway. But, I suppose if I body bump them away from my child, then I'd imagine I could do aikido with them as long as they continued to try to get through me to get to my child. I was thinking it would be funny (I won't do this of course) to go to the Aiki Expo and actually get up in the middle of the classes and get in the way of the person who was called up to take ukemi - to "protect the sensei". I'm not sure I would really be able to do it (even if I weren't escorted out by security or police or worse) - but I think it would be a similar situation to trying to do aikido when the attacker is after someone else.

If someone were trying to block my way to get to something I need (I'd hope they were not professional defensive ends in american football) and I suppose I'd attack, and hope I could do aikido or something effective against their response..

I think what we do typically drops down to a level of jui-jitsu if we initiate the attack. There are some folks out there, like Gleason sensei who seem to be able to advance on me in such a way that he makes me attack him on his timing. I don't really understand how it works very well, but I have been on the receiving end of that so I know it is true (at least to my level of dealing with him) eventhough I can't explain it very well.

Rob
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Old 02-18-2005, 07:33 AM   #34
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Aikido works. Your aikido doesn't work.

When you love someone, does it work?
When you smile, does it work?
When you go to sleep at night, does it work?
Do the laws of nature work?

Aikido doesn't work, it just is.
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Old 02-26-2005, 06:16 PM   #35
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Aikido works. Your aikido doesn't work.

Friends of mine not too long ago attended a seminar where the guest instructor said something like; My aikido works, maybe your aikido doesn't work. Or something to the same effect.

I took it to mean that in an actual confrontation that some folks felt that aikido would not work and that this sensei was telling them that they were not performing aikido to its fullest potential. I could be wrong, it's just my interpretation.

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 02-26-2005, 08:28 PM   #36
aikiwolf
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Re: Aikido works. Your aikido doesn't work.

From a philosophical and somewhat theoretical standpoint, I agree with John Matsushima when he says "Aikido doesn't work it just is."
Work implies force of some kind F=ma, from basic physics principles. The heart of Aikido lies in being "the center of the universe" and needs no Force in which to work.
Is this true from a practical application standpoint? I would say "yes". Regardless of the attack, if you harmonize with the existent energy you can easily control said attacker completely. As was mentioned previously, if you harmonize to "perfection", no technique is needed, THAT would be the technique.
As far as the "hit and run" techniques, jabs and the like-- the attack is not in the jab, the attack is in the step they must take to reach you with their jab, punch, etc. Don't react to the arm flailing about in the air, react to the body it is attached to and you will be much more successful.
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Old 02-27-2005, 12:39 AM   #37
Charles Hill
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Re: Aikido works. Your aikido doesn't work.

In the book, Budo, the Founder states that ikkyo omote starts with a strike to uke`s face, and ura starts with uke attacking first. According to Saito Sensei, after the was the Founder changed it so that both omote and ura start with a strike to uke`s face. This is probably what Saito Sensei refered to as the first level "go no keiko" with higher levels being where one draws out the attack.
Charles Hill
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Old 02-27-2005, 07:21 PM   #38
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido works. Your aikido doesn't work.

My thinking is that it's misleading to say "your aikido doesn't work." Aikido, by definition, works. If it didn't work, it's not Aikido, but something which looks similar. One person can train in a technique and be able to perform it upon someone else, but may not be able to perform it on yet another person who is perhaps more in touch with the principle of aiki. When does the technique cease to be Aikido? When conflict is not able to be resolved. We study aikido, but we only practice it when we successfully negate confliction.
This is somewhat pedantic perhaps, but it's the best answer I can think of. Having trained in a couple different dojos, my critical eye says some places are better than others at different things. True training comes from within, with a keen eye and an open mind, regardless of where you train, and "which aikido" you train in.
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Old 02-27-2005, 08:39 PM   #39
AaronFrancher
 
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Re: Aikido works. Your aikido doesn't work.

I have found that many times perspective can get in the way of proper teaching. If a student sees the technique a different way from what you're teaching, then it wasn't taught incorrectly. It was just misunderstood. However, training may also become a factor in why the technique failed. If a technique is only practiced at half speed, then the student might not learn how to use its full potential.

It is not simply a fight to the finish, it is knowing what to do once you have won.
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