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Old 02-09-2005, 05:03 PM   #51
Keith R Lee
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Re: Nice Video...

I'm glad people seem to be liking it.

I have seen alot of aikido videos on the web but never any that seemed to focus on the way I like to practice. Good hard traing, just go, etc. Also, and no offense intended, there seemed to be a distinct lack of (what I consider) good basics in many of the videos I have seen. Timing, balance, just plain throwing-someone-like-you-mean-it, etc. But that could just be the Yosh in me talking. Then again, there doesn't seem to be alot of Yoshinkan (or Shotokan, I like the way you guys train too!) videos on the web minus what's here on Aikiweb.

Anyway, making a video wasn't my intent when filming this, it just sort of happend after I was going over the footage. There other thing I have noticed with alot of Aikido clips is a lack of modern editing work. I'm not saying that I'm good at it per se, (the video is choppy is some spots) but I tried my best to make it look something that would be professionally put together.

Ron, as for the block, yeah it is a block with the hand. Those Kumi Jo sets we were doing were the ones the AAA does I think. I don't really know that much about them, and yes, the block seems a little funny to me. The instructor who taught them to us had learned them from Toyoda sensei so maybe a long time AAA student could chime in. We were just fooling around with them. They were hard to do cause we didn't know how much we were supposed to pivot.

Anyway, if people like the video, feel free to share it, or use it or whatever, I don't mind.

Cheers,

Keith Lee
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Old 02-09-2005, 06:24 PM   #52
maikerus
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Re: Nice Video...

Keith,

Thanks for sharing that video. I really enjoyed it. Well done!

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 02-09-2005, 06:41 PM   #53
maikerus
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
is that I believe I have seen high level yoshinkan instructors both move uke around them, and move themselves around uke, depending on the circumstances.
Hey Ron,

As a fellow YoshiOrc, I agree with you. I've seen/felt both too. Anyone watching Ando Sensei will see the value of shite moving around uke (and that's before the "technique" part of the technique even starts half the time).

My take would be that as shite you want to be in the strongest position for the next movement in the technique while uke is in the weakest. That can be achieved sometimes by move uke around you and sometimes by you moving around uke.

A good example is shihonage because there you don't really want uke to take a step, but want to rotate their arm around their shoulder, so shite has to move to make that rotation work.

On the other hand, in irimi nage or kotegaeshi its a lot easier if uke is constantly falling around you before the technique is applied.

I do sometimes find that in our [Yoshinkan] training shite sometimes seems to make a lot of moves to do one thing to uke, but the concept of uke not feeling anything (or just a brief discomfort) before the final *splat*(tm) is key to this idea.

My thoughts...which are all borrowed and have been re-packaged for the internet...

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 02-09-2005, 10:18 PM   #54
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
My take would be that as shite you want to be in the strongest position for the next movement in the technique while uke is in the weakest. That can be achieved sometimes by move uke around you and sometimes by you moving around uke.

A good example is shihonage because there you don't really want uke to take a step, but want to rotate their arm around their shoulder, so shite has to move to make that rotation work.
--Michael
I think, not only shihonage, but ANY technique in any aikido style is not possible to do on static attacker.
It doesn't depend of style; it is based on physical construction of human body.
Because aikido is an exchange. If shite moving around of uke, and uke is not moving, it means that uke holds his balance. it means an opening and possible counter.

In my shihonage uke is ALWAYS moving, in both, omote and ura versions. I can lead him using leverage, timing and changing distance, but I lead him in the way, he's moving AND loosing his balance.

Even if you go for choke behind uke, he must move forward as you enter irimi. Otherwise irimi isn't possible. I can't see ANY martial reason to go around uke. Aikido is based on sword work. With sword, you not waving and running around opponent, you enter and cut his center(irimi and atemi). Aikido is about that.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-10-2005, 01:13 AM   #55
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
In my shihonage uke is ALWAYS moving, in both, omote and ura versions. I can lead him using leverage, timing and changing distance, but I lead him in the way, he's moving AND loosing his balance.

Doing Aikido technique is about adapting to the situation, and the uke attacking you. In a perfect world, I agree with Szczepan, you become the centre and uke moves around you. But it's not always a perfect world, sometimes you may be forced to change your position. In this instance, it is quite acceptable for you to go around uke. Going around uke doesn't mean that you suddenly forget how to do the technique though, you still lead uke using leverage, timing and ma ai, these are always ki () to any technique.

rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 02-10-2005, 06:39 AM   #56
rob_liberti
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Re: Nice Video...

These absolutes are not helpful. If person who has the role of "uke" is completely not moving then why are we calling that person "uke"? Also, I agree that in sword, you enter, thrust, and/or cut, and maybe slice after cutting. But, you do it from superior position or when you enter you get thrusted, and/or cut, and maybe sliced after being cut. So you still have to move around the other person a bit. I find that 100% ura (where the nage/peacemaker/whatever is in the center) is just as unrealistic as 100% omote (where the uke/attacker/escalator is in the center). - Rob.
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Old 02-10-2005, 07:25 AM   #57
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
If shite moving around of uke, and uke is not moving, it means that uke holds his balance.
I haven't found that to be true. Shioda Sensei, in either Dynamic Aikido, or The Masters Course, speaks of 'fixing' uke's power, and of breaking their balance and freezing them in one position. Breaking someone's balance is one thing, breaking their balance and keeping them from taking a step and regaining their balance another.

But I must say that I have felt people like Henry Smith Sensei who spiral me around them like a top while seemingly barely moving themselves. It is a wonderful style of technique, very powerfull, and a good example of flowing from ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, iriminage then down! without me ever regaining balance. When I try his technique, I'm moving all over the place! When he does it, I'm moving, he is still and balanced, and I've got no choice except ride the wind...and pray he doesn't smack me somewhere in there because my ukemi stinks...

I thought the jo work form was yosh, but the movements and positioning looked unfamiliar...now I understand why...Thanks!

Ron

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Old 02-10-2005, 07:58 AM   #58
Keith R Lee
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:

I thought the jo work form was yosh, but the movements and positioning looked unfamiliar...now I understand why...Thanks!

Ron
Well, we tried to make it yosh looking, instead we were probably screwing it up!

I have to say I think it's ok for uke to be still for a moment while shite moves or vice versa during a technique. Shite should attempt to maintain maximum control during the entire techniqque of course, but once two people start to move together, who knows what could happen.

Also,

Quote:
Breaking someone's balance is one thing, breaking their balance and keeping them from taking a step and regaining their balance another.
is something I've felt as uke many times from certain instructors and I think quite applicable to the situation that is being described (though not perhaps so well in my video. Cut us some slack! )

Keith Lee
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:20 AM   #59
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I haven't found that to be true. Shioda Sensei, in either Dynamic Aikido, or The Masters Course, speaks of 'fixing' uke's power, and of breaking their balance and freezing them in one position. Breaking someone's balance is one thing, breaking their balance and keeping them from taking a step and regaining their balance another.

Ron
I'd like very much to feel it one day.
For the moment I think it is only possible if there is some kind of convention that prevent uke from being actif.

Otherwise, I think it is simply physically impossible to freez uke after breaking his balance(see judo players). Advanced uke, only by slightly shifting his weigh, without moving at all is able to regain his balance. That's why I keep him moving all time in order to maintain off balance.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:25 AM   #60
maikerus
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
In my shihonage uke is ALWAYS moving, in both, omote and ura versions. I can lead him using leverage, timing and changing distance, but I lead him in the way, he's moving AND loosing his balance.
Hmmm...you make a good point. However, I wonder if you are stating that uke has to move their feet to lose their balance. This may be the easiest way, but I don't believe it to be the only way.

As Ron alluded to, one of the concepts that Gozo Shioda Sensei has passed on is that as shite your "job", if you will, is to find the place where uke loses their balance by buckling their knees. This can be done in a variety of ways, not all of which necessitate uke moving their feet. And if uke does not move their feet then their chances of regaining their balance are lessened.

What do you think?

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:28 AM   #61
maikerus
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
I'd like very much to feel it one day.
For the moment I think it is only possible if there is some kind of convention that prevent uke from being actif.

Otherwise, I think it is simply physically impossible to freez uke after breaking his balance(see judo players). Advanced uke, only by slightly shifting his weigh, without moving at all is able to regain his balance. That's why I keep him moving all time in order to maintain off balance.
I've felt it. Your feet literally cannot move and your balance is totally dependent on what shite decides to do to you.

Fun...even excilerating...but sometimes terrifying.

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:57 AM   #62
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
but sometimes terrifying.
Nope...always!
Ron

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Old 02-10-2005, 10:34 AM   #63
Fred Little
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
I'd like very much to feel it one day.
For the moment I think it is only possible if there is some kind of convention that prevent uke from being actif.

Otherwise, I think it is simply physically impossible to freez uke after breaking his balance(see judo players). Advanced uke, only by slightly shifting his weigh, without moving at all is able to regain his balance. That's why I keep him moving all time in order to maintain off balance.
Convention is one possibility. Another is the line of attack of a second or third uke or some other environmental variable.

Optimally, yes, nage wants to be able to be still while moving uke. But if there are multiple lines of attack, or walls, or surface drops that can intervene, there may be case-by-case reasons for nage to move while uke does not.

Given the difficulty of getting to the point where nage can consistently make uke move around, as a practical matter, if you train toward that goal while keeping an eye on how you have to move to fix your mistakes on the suboptimal reps, it should be possible to develop both skill sets over time.

Fred Little
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:10 PM   #64
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
Fred Little wrote:
But if there are multiple lines of attack, or walls, or surface drops that can intervene, there may be case-by-case reasons for nage to move while uke does not.

Fred Little
In the case of multiple attacks, nage has to move, to chose next attacker. But he has max 1 second to throw each attacker, so both, uke and nage must move. And in fact, nage goes by very linear movement, so going around of uke is out of question.

Of course the wall will stop definitely an attacker, when you throw him with great power

Nagababa

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Old 02-10-2005, 09:27 PM   #65
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
Hmmm...you make a good point. However, I wonder if you are stating that uke has to move their feet to lose their balance. This may be the easiest way, but I don't believe it to be the only way.

As Ron alluded to, one of the concepts that Gozo Shioda Sensei has passed on is that as shite your "job", if you will, is to find the place where uke loses their balance by buckling their knees. This can be done in a variety of ways, not all of which necessitate uke moving their feet. And if uke does not move their feet then their chances of regaining their balance are lessened.

What do you think?

--Michael
Well, I don't know......if uke is very stiff, doing kihon (convention, convention...) it can be done. But normally, any good attacker wants to regain his balance immediately, he will not stack himself in one place waiting to be off balanced. He will do many small steps and body shifting in order to preserve/regain his balance, if he is "alive". More advanced practice is when attacker resists AND continually adjusts his stance to prevent easy off balancing.

And then, you have situation, when attacker uses every opening in your technique to make a counter…
So many levels of practice existe

Of course, rather standard situation in aikido dojo is that uke after ending his first attack, simply wait passively to be locked or thrown. So with such "attacker" <-we can call him rather "throwing doll", not real attacker, you can may be put him and preserve off balance without moving him.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:35 PM   #66
maikerus
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
But normally, any good attacker wants to regain his balance immediately, he will not stack himself in one place waiting to be off balanced.
I think this was the point

Any good attacker *will* try and regain his balance immediately. It follows that any good shite will try and make it so that he cannot. It also follows that a "good attacker" will try to attack without losing their balance at all...so maybe a good shite might have to deal with that.

If uke keeps their balance by standing firm and planting feet then having them lose their balance without having them need to move their feet seems like a good thing to do.

Seems like a pretty straight forward concept to me. Especially since I've been there. <wry grin>

Of course, Its hard to practice something that you haven't seen and don't believe in. Its more of a theoretical discussion than anything else for me anyway. Maybe when I get older I'll understand more <sigh>.

cheers,

--Michael

Last edited by maikerus : 02-10-2005 at 09:49 PM.

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Old 02-11-2005, 07:43 AM   #67
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
Well, I don't know......if uke is very stiff, doing kihon (convention, convention...) it can be done.
Your choice of words leads me to believe that you don't understand very much about the practice in question...my own teachers prefer uke not be stiff, and not be a rag-doll. One of my own major problems is that I'm much too stiff as uke and as shite, and my seniors constantly work with me to improve this.

Ron

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Old 02-11-2005, 12:52 PM   #68
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Re: Nice Video...

I would say that "convention" is always going to fall on the side of any tactic that remains singular in its aspect. So more than likely, whenever you are by decision or by tradition going to attempt to satisfy ALL tactical situations with a singular tactic that is trying to be stretched into a universal, more times than not one is going to have to use "convention" in training environments in order to make sure that the short-comings of such a perspective are not too exposed. A good example of this can be seen in all those types of ukemi where Uke runs around Nage for no reason or solely for the reason of "following" and or of "staying connected" - which are euphemisms for "convention." In such cases, in my opinion, it is the raising of the position that "Nage must always remain the center of the technique - at all times" to the level of being a universal that motivates such highly unmartial responses.

It may be the case that one may find more need for tenkan over irimi, or it may be the case that one will find more need for clearing the line of attack over staying on it, or it may be the case that one may find more need for Yang over Yin, etc., or vice versa, but it should never be the case that one aspect of a tactic should be over-stretched and falsely held up as a universal. If there is one thing that will never make sense, in my opinion, it is that.

To be sure, you don't want someone standing still waiting for you to fidget with their hands until you figure something out, but that doesn't mean that we want to limit our tactical options to only having our attacker go around us. The chaos of a real hand to hand engagement demands that you do whatever works, and to do whatever works, one must be open to every possibility. In my opinion, Aikido is the reconciling of all possibilities, not the censoring or restricting of some or the uplifting and glorifying of others.

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-12-2005, 10:05 PM   #69
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Re: Nice Video...

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
The chaos of a real hand to hand engagement demands that you do whatever works, and to do whatever works, one must be open to every possibility. In my opinion, Aikido is the reconciling of all possibilities, not the censoring or restricting of some or the uplifting and glorifying of others.
well, more I practice, I'm more convinced that exists only very few general principles that tori/shite must follow. Exactly because of this reality what you call "chaos". On that level, things must be (and are!!!) very simple, if you want to preserve efficiency of your work(techniques, movements, etc…). Remember principle called KISS?
Because these are principles, there is nothing to restrict you, on contrary, it gives you a lot of freedom, but you can't do anything you like. Quite paradox, isn't it?

Another example can be principle of "one step". Normally only one step is needed to attack efficiently, so aikido technique must be applied during this step, enter into the attack and throw/pin attacker. If you allow attacker for more liberty, he can counter any of your techniques. Now, if you combine previous principle with this one, it gives interesting picture of application.
Both principles can be found in weapons practice, it is not only my imagination or choice. Of course folks that don't practice sword, can have difficulty to find these principles.

Nagababa

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Old 02-13-2005, 12:39 AM   #70
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Re: Nice Video...

Yes, I think that is something I can agree with - if I am understanding you correctly. Both principles (e.g. going around and being the center) are found in, for example, sword technique - or in all technique. I think it is always like that - both sides of a tactic are present, though both are never equal. The principle marks the presence (or the potential) of a tactic, but the situation marks correctness. Still, I don't think that correctness negates potential or principle - it only qualifies it. And that's why I would say, in agreement with Mr. Liberti, disqualifying something by a philosophy of absolutes is probably not the best thing. Let's just say, "For situation 'x,' doing 'y' is probably not the best thing and/or even the correct thing." That is the kind of statement my own experience can agree with.

Interestingly, it is often the case that in sword (vs. sword) you go around more than the vice versa (which is for the most part different from body art as it is commonly practiced in some circles) - go figure. ;-)

David M. Valadez
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