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Old 05-11-2001, 08:45 AM   #1
Hagen Seibert
Dojo: TendoRyu
Location: Freiburg
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Cool turning the fist ?

There are some bassic possibilities to perform a straight punch:

a) turning the fist, so the knuckles line up horizontally, like in classic karate

b) without turning the fist, the knuckles line up vertically, like in wing tsun or JKD, hitting with the 3 lower knuckles

c) without turning the fist like b, but hitting with the 2 upper knuckles ( Connelly Jujitsu )

d) i might also mention the version I saw in a book by Dillman, turning the fist 45

I feel a) will stop your forward movement which makes it suitable for performing into the air, whereas b) and c) will keep you going forward

Im aware this is not something aikido people are most competent, but maybe some of you have experience ?

Which one is better?
Which one fits better into aikido practice?
I feel this is c)
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Old 05-11-2001, 01:08 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hagen Seibert
There are some bassic possibilities to perform a straight punch:

...

b) without turning the fist, the knuckles line up vertically, like in wing tsun or JKD, hitting with the 3 lower knuckles

c) without turning the fist like b, but hitting with the 2 upper knuckles ( Connelly Jujitsu )

...
I like b) over c) for optimal bone alignment, which makes it safer and easier to transfer power through the wrist. Hit your buddies ten times with b), ten times with c), and see which one they dislike more

P.S. I don't trust that funky one-knuckle-out punching either, you'll break your finger on the bad guy's jaw.
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Old 05-11-2001, 01:24 PM   #3
lt-rentaroo
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Hello,

Personally, I prefer option number "b". Like Chris said, the knuckles lign up better with the bones in your forearm for much better transmission of energy. When performing atemi with a closed fist, I use this method of striking (Probably because I've studied Wing Chun as well).

Odd as it is though, when practicing techniques against a punch in Aikido we usually defend against a punch performed like option "a", where the wrist is rotated to allow the knuckles to be horizontal with the floor. I've had the opportunity to train at different dojo around the country, and I've found this style of punch to be pretty common.

I'm not sure which is better for Aikido training (at least from a defensive perspective), but I do believe that option "b" is better for atemi. Have a good day!

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 05-12-2001, 02:24 AM   #4
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
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There is a problem punching 'B' and that is the bottom two fingers have less muscle and ligament support in the hand. This means the bones in the hand have a greater chance of braking. This is a very common injury on Friday and Saturday nights in the emergency room. It hurts a lot having bones stick out from the bottom of your hand or so I've been tolled.
Don't get me wrong it works but if you make contact with a bad angel then fights over, you lose.
So in my opinion go 'C' or go Dillman.

Graham Wild
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Old 05-14-2001, 11:20 AM   #5
willy_lee
Dojo: City Aikido
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(a) vs. (d)

I have read that (a) was originally taught in Okinawan karate to beginners so that they wouldn't hurt each other too much, whereas (d) was taught to the more advanced students as a
more effective strike.

Wish I could provide corroboration, but am at work.
=wl
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Old 05-14-2001, 11:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by wildaikido
There is a problem punching 'B' and that is the bottom two fingers have less muscle and ligament support in the hand. This means the bones in the hand have a greater chance of braking. This is a very common injury on Friday and Saturday nights in the emergency room.
The muscles and ligaments will keep your bones from breaking? This doesn't make much sense to me. Can you give some references for this theory?
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Old 05-14-2001, 03:09 PM   #7
lt-rentaroo
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Hello,

Ummm, the hand does not have any muscles in it (at least none that control finger movement). Hands have bone, ligaments, and tendons. The muscles that control movement of the fingers are located in the forearm. Tendons connect the muscles in your forearm to the bones in your hand and allow your fingers to move. Ligaments connect bones to other bones. The muscles that control finger movement along with the associated tendons and ligaments would have very little to do with your fingers getting broken (dislocated is another issue - at least where ligaments are concerned).

WildAikido, I've seen the injury that you mention. It seems to be caused more by a lack of proper technique rather than the type of punch used. Just as you said, if the angle is not right; fractured wrists or fingers can occur.

Just like everything else we do in life, practice leads to better technique.

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 05-15-2001, 01:56 AM   #8
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
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Quote:
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
Odd as it is though, when practicing techniques against a punch in Aikido we usually defend against a punch performed like option "a",
Over here everybody uses pretty much option b that I've seen. Does it make a huge difference to nage? (Assuming you don't catch one on the nose....)

In response to (censored), that'd be why you wouldn't punch the jaw. No problem with a single knuckle if you can do it well- properly to the proper point. (For the record, I believe I cannot.)
Speaking of... would it be a bit foolish to twist with a single knuckle? (Because I think it would)
andrew
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Old 05-15-2001, 04:04 AM   #9
ian
 
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I generally prefer the horizontal knuckle strike (with first 2 knuckles). However I believe all these strikes are intended to do different things.

The small knuckles do line up better with the wrist, but unless you hand is well conditioned I would not punch anyone in a bony region with this. (try hitting a tree with this part of your hand - you'll find the knuckles have a tendency to seperate). Also, it is possible to line up the first two knuckles with your fist (otherwise you'll break your wrist - a common fighting injury). Also the first two knuckles tend to be more pronounced, and therefore you are more likely to be able to concentrate the force in a smaller area.

When striking with the knuckles horizontal the shoulder tends to turn over and raise making it is easier to direct force from the shoulder. This is also possible with the vertical method, but is less comfortable. The vertical method tends to be faster, harder to see or block (as there is less tendency to do it with a roundhouse style), but less powerful (as it is harder to get the body behind it). Obviously power and speed in either can be developed.

Striking with the fingers at 45 deg, or using a protruding middle finger is usually used for striking pressure points (as a normal fist will not get correct entry as it squashes the surrounding tissue around the pressure point). They are very effective if you manage to hit the spot right, as you don't need much force - whether you can do this through clothing and whilst the opponent is moving is another question.

Its interesting that Wing Chun was developed by a Nun, as it would seem that a female would be better to take advantage of speed rather than body power to strike someone.

For me, I attack with the two knuckle version, and often atemi with this as well because I'm used to it (although my favourite atemis are with pressure points or open hand)- however I would probably be better off using a fast vertical knuckle strike for an atemi.

Ian
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Old 05-15-2001, 11:45 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by andrew


Over here everybody uses pretty much option b that I've seen. Does it make a huge difference to nage? (Assuming you don't catch one on the nose....)
I would say so. There are many more things you can do with a stiff horizontal punch launched from the side, elbow sideways (Karate), then with a fast vertical punch launched from the front, elbow down (Wing Chun). The only reason I've ever heard of someone favoring the former over the latter, is the belief that the latter is not powerful enough.

Quote:

In response to (censored), that'd be why you wouldn't punch the jaw. No problem with a single knuckle if you can do it well- properly to the proper point.
...if they aren't moving whilst you are hitting them? What if you miss the soft spot by half an inch? What if they shift and torque your finger while absorbing the punch? What do I get for risking my finger?
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Old 05-15-2001, 12:28 PM   #11
Greg Jennings
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Two different things: the first is the way we simulate an attack and the second is how we atemi.

When I'm at home (i.e., not visiting), I vary my attacks. Sometimes more the horizontal fist, sometimes the vertical and sometimes the old bare-knuckler method. I always try to strike with either the two largest knuckles or even just the index finger's knuckle. On reflection, I also sometimes use the #1 atemi described in the next paragraph. I also always try to keep my back hand up in a realistic guard position vice down by my hip.

Our (hand) atemi, subject to all the cavaets of failing memory, ignorance, etc., is of three kinds: 1. Middle knuckle protruding with fist palm up and elbows in, 2. Shuto (actually the outside edge of the palm vice the side of the hand and 3. Palm/palm heel. Each is used on appropriate targets for effectiveness and to limit damage to the hand.

BTW, we also knees, elbows and the very, very rare kick (I can think of only a couple of instances...both are from a sacrifice throw counter technique).

When I'm visiting another dojo, I closely observe and try to do what they do for both attacks and atemi. A. I see no reason to attempt to interject my thoughts, prejudices, etc. into their practice. B. I might see something way better and C. It's just the polite thing to do.

If you'll allow me to wander a little....

This gets into my philosophy about what aikido is. Now, this is my personal philosophy and doesn't mean it even reflects my instructors' philosophies.

In short, I believe that aikido is about constant improvement.

I think that I should always be honestly evaluating my technique. As nage/tori/sh'te, I should be looking to eliminate holes (e.g. chances for uke to counter) in my own execution, looking for ways that I can slightly change my technique so that uke has more holes in his position.

I should be looking for those situations that allow me to practically bring conflict to a least-injurious-to-all (with me and mine first priority) resolution.

By technique, I don't just mean once uke has grabbed, punched, or whatever. I mean the whole context. Particularly maai and subtle body positioning and movements that put uke into a inferior position even before the attack has commenced.

As uke, I believe that I should always be striving to provide a better learning situation for nage, always looking for a way to move that limits my holes and preserves my options to counter and to, finally, take a safe fall.

I believe all that is _very_ ambitious. But, I believe that's just part of aikido.

I believe that my aikido has to be effective. That's the baseline that I use for differentiating correct from incorrect. OTOH, I believe that for me the real applicability of aikido is using it for self-improvement.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Till I change my mind.

Sorry to ramble.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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