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Old 12-12-2004, 01:10 PM   #1
chrisward
Location: Yukon, Oklahoma
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Question...

It is my understanding that Aikido evolved from Jiu Jitsu. I recently was doing some reading about Aikido when I came across a company advertising books referring to small circle Jiu Jutsu. I understand this forum is for Aikido, however, if anyone could explain the difference between the two for me I would be interested in your feedback.
Respectfully,
Chris
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Old 12-12-2004, 01:18 PM   #2
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
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Re: Question...

Quote:
Chris Ward wrote:
It is my understanding that Aikido evolved from Jiu Jitsu. I recently was doing some reading about Aikido when I came across a company advertising books referring to small circle Jiu Jutsu. I understand this forum is for Aikido, however, if anyone could explain the difference between the two for me I would be interested in your feedback.
Respectfully,
Chris
Which two? Small Circle JJ and jujutsu?

The first is Wally Jay's brand (school/ryu/style); the latter is a generic term for close quarter combat techniques.

Hope this helps. Do a search on WJ, SMJJ, and Danzan-ryu--he's well-know, well-regarded and materials will abound, e.g., http://www.danzan.com/HTML/PEOPLE/wally.html

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 12-12-2004, 03:00 PM   #3
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
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Re: Question...

Quote:
Chris Ward wrote:
It is my understanding that Aikido evolved from Jiu Jitsu. ... I came across a company advertising books referring to small circle Jiu Jutsu. ... if anyone could explain the difference between the two ...
I wouldn't say that aikido evolved from jujutsu, but rather, that aikido is one of the many forms of jujutsu.

Saying that it evolved from jujutsu, I think, implies that it is a higher form of endeavor than jujutsu, and that just ain't so, and if you look hard at some of the old forms, you'll see that everything contained in aikido can be found in other systems that already existed.

What aikido did -- or rather what Ueshiba did -- IMHO, was to put together a system of martial practice overlaid with his own unique philosophy, and trained up a cadre of seniors students who could then codify and transmit that art.

That, in and of itself is also not particularly unique, but what Ueshiba did was to popularize his art, make it somewhat more accesible, instill in his students a sort of 'missionary fervor' if you will.

Rather than focus on teaching a small handful of students the whole art, he gave to each of his senior deshi what they could handle, what they could improve upon and what they could transmit, then sent them off to do so.

This is where aikido stands today.

Now, Small Circle JJ ... this is, AFAIK, Wally Jay's interpretation of Danzan Ryu JJ, which is itself a modern creation of one Henry Okazaki, who combined some older forms of jujutsu with Kodokan Judo and added in a liberal helping of native Hawaiaan and Asian restorative massage techniques.

DZR JJ is interesting stuff, and the DZR folks I've trained with have been great, but I (and this is just me, YMMV) have never been particularly impressed with Jay's SCJJ. It's effective enough in its own way, but he stripped away much of what Okazaki used to make DZR a fairly holistic art.

What's the diff in aikido and SCJJ? Apples and oranges. Bodies only twist and crumple a limited number of ways. Both arts contain similar methodologies for doing so. Depends on what you're looking for.

The big difference I think you'd find would be in the philosophic approaches.

Chuck

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Old 12-13-2004, 04:11 AM   #4
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
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Re: Question...

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
I wouldn't say that aikido evolved from jujutsu, but rather, that aikido is one of the many forms of jujutsu.

Saying that it evolved from jujutsu, I think, implies that it is a higher form of endeavor than jujutsu, and that just ain't so, and if you look hard at some of the old forms, you'll see that everything contained in aikido can be found in other systems that already existed.
Have to disagree with you on a couple of points here Chuck.
I agree that the techniques of Aikido are the techniques of jujitsu.

However - For me the difference between Aikido and jujitsu are that in aikido the emphasis is not on the performance of the technique but on the use of the technique as a tool to develop martial bases.

At its core its philosophy is the convergance of yin and yang, positive and negative to release ki.

To view it merely as another flavour of jujitsu completely disregards the true philosophy of aikido.

If you are saying that some jujitsu looked at yin and yang, some looked at ki and such like I'd probably agree with you.

But In my personal experience the focus of training in jujitsu has always been on the techniques, In aikido it has always been on using the techniques for broader exploration.

For me this difference in focus is so great that I have to see it as a separate art rather that a different form of jujitsu. While for you this is merely philosophic, for me it completely impacts the way that I have trained in both.

Respectfully

D

Last edited by Dazzler : 12-13-2004 at 04:19 AM.
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:01 AM   #5
gasman
 
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Dojo: Sunyata
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Re: Question...

My sensei says there is small circle aikido and big circle aikido, small circle JJ and big circle JJ. Aikido's physical techniques are derived from jiujitsu so there should not be much difference. My latest confirmation of this was discussing priniples and techniques with my doorman chief at the University Rock stage, who is training Australian Jiujitsu.

AFAIK, training "big circle" will make your "small circle" movements better. "small circle" moves are faster and more applicable in close quarters, whereas "big circle" is more powerful and gives you more options to switch techniques.

/my 2 cents
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Old 12-13-2004, 12:00 PM   #6
Greg Jennings
Dojo: S&G BJJ
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Re: Question...

As mentioned earlier, the first thing that comes to mind when someone says "Small Circle JuJitsu/Jujutsu" is Wally Jay's adaptation of Danzan Ryu. It's not that it's small, it's the name.

Best,

Greg Jennings
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Old 12-14-2004, 01:20 AM   #7
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Question...

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
Have to disagree with you on a couple of points here Chuck.
That's fine. There's no ONE budo, no One True Way. We all only epxperience what we're capable of and open to and must form ideas and opinions therefrom.

Quote:
To view it merely as another flavour of jujitsu completely disregards the true philosophy of aikido.
Depends on how you define 'aikido' and 'jujutsu' ... Jujutsu is a broadly generic term that encompasses a myriad of arts that range from the deeply esoteric to the extremely mundane. Jujutsu simply identifies a system of Japanese budo that is essentially unarmed, or lightly armed.

Note that I refer here solely to Japanese budo, and not the offshoots, combo arts, westernized practices, etc.

Aikido fits in there somewhat past middle toward the esoteric end.

Quote:
If you are saying that some jujitsu looked at yin and yang, some looked at ki and such like I'd probably agree with you.
Many have and do. However, few place those teachings at the forefront of the curriculum as much of aikido tends to. In most trad. systems, the esoterica is okuden, reserved for folks who hang around for a while and show a certain level of committment to the system. Aikido puts it all out up front, more accesible and available to anyone who wanders in the dojo.

Quote:
But In my personal experience the focus of training in jujitsu has always been on the techniques, In aikido it has always been on using the techniques for broader exploration.
Again, not untrue, but largely dependent on the ryuha, the organization, the dojo and the teacher.

Quote:
For me this difference in focus is so great that I have to see it as a separate art rather that a different form of jujitsu.
I _think_ we may be talking about different things here. What kind of jujutsu are you referencing? And what flavor of aikido> Those factors can make a huge difference in our semantic agreement.

Chuck

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Old 12-14-2004, 02:49 AM   #8
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
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Re: Question...

Hi Chuck

Thanks for reply. My Jujitsu experience has been primarily with Goshin jujitsu which is certainly at the extreme end of modern jujitsu.

It was this very contrast that attracted me to it. I didn't want to be doing two similar arts.

So yep...could be that other flavours come a lot closer to what I view as aikido.

I understand you work with the Aikido_L group....? next time your across here with them maybe I'll come along and we can pick up the discussion on the mat..or over a beer!

Cheers

D
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Old 12-14-2004, 03:45 AM   #9
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
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Re: Question...

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
>Goshin jujitsu which is certainly at the extreme end of modern jujitsu.
Yep. And that informs the discussion a lot. To me, the term 'jujutsu' is really just an umbrella that covers a very wide spectrum of martial endeavor, sort of like 'kenjutsu' ... it can be used to describe any number of things across a very broad spectrum.

JJ's not a discrete 'style', like Daito Ryu or aikido or Takeuchi Ryu.

>I understand you work with the Aikido_L group....?
>next time your across here with them maybe I'll come along
>and we can pick up the discussion on the mat..or over a
>beer!

Sounds good to me.

Got some good friends in the UK thru the aikido-l! I've been wanting to get to Birmingham to see some of the folks there, but with the dollar in the tubes right now (pretty much $2 per pound ... ) it's going to have to wait.

However, you (and all my UK list and web friends) are always welcome here ... great beer, great food, cheaper than most of Germany and Czech is maybe 45 min away (waves a picture of Chodovar at John Lawlor).

Chuck


Cheers

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