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Old 11-29-2004, 06:24 PM   #26
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
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Re: Tanto Shiai Demonstration

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote:
competition just isn't my thing
That seems to be the sticking point, eh?

'We' say randori but you only hear 'competition'. Just can't say anything, it cannot be discussed...because what we say and what you hear...is different, what we try to do and what you see us doing...different. You have already...a solid picture in your mind of what is being talked about (ie shiai) and your picture is so strong to your own perception...it's not actually what we do.

You can go into detail what you are talking about...but it is only really descriptive of what you mean.

I will tell you what randori means to me, translation-wise and personal-wise, as I have said on other forums/threads:

Randori:-finding order in chaos

To others it means trying to apply waza on people who move extremely quickly, to others it means getting under the centre of balance, to others it could mean finding your rhythm with someone who will use every trick possible(feigning injury, deception, subterfuge, emotion, friendliness, someone-is-behind-me-I-can-only-move-in-certain-directions, 4 timing points)....and whatever....

you only see a hunt for medals...which just now seems to me to be a denial of your own competitiveness...do you not turn up each time to overcome your failures? Do you not cajole and punish and tease and compliment and encourage and reassure and PUSH those around you?

I do, and I hope only to train amongst those who also do.

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Old 11-29-2004, 11:52 PM   #27
Bronson
 
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Re: Tanto Shiai Demonstration

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote:
'We' say randori but you only hear 'competition'.
Oops, my mistake. I thought I was responding to a question about people in styles other than Shodokan feelings about competition. When I went back and read it it did indeed state tanto randori...my apologies.

You're right in that I don't really have a clear picture of what Shodokan tanto randori is all about. I've only seen video clips and as a side note those clips were in a shiai setting.

Really as far as I can see the big thorn that sticks in a lot of aikido people's sides about the system that Tomiki Sensei built is the competition aspect. Which is too bad really. I don't have anything against the idea of shiai or full resistance randori, especially when its done in the manner that has been described to me here on AikiWeb by some other Shodokan folks. Neither of them are, again, not what I'm after.

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote:
you only see a hunt for medals...
Well, I guess you've got me all figured out. Just for the record, no I don't.

Really I think we agree a lot more than disagree. I'm probably one of the most open-minded aiki-fruities your likely to find on the subject

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote:
which just now seems to me to be a denial of your own competitiveness...
Oh, I'll never deny my own competitiveness. It's quite strong and thriving

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote:
do you not turn up each time to overcome your failures? Do you not cajole and punish and tease and compliment and encourage and reassure and PUSH those around you?

I do, and I hope only to train amongst those who also do.
Again, I think we agree more than disagree.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 11-30-2004, 04:33 AM   #28
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
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Re: Tanto Shiai Demonstration

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote:
Again, I think we agree more than disagree.

Bronson
Of course. And I was wrong to go on about randori/competition. The fact is that at early levels, there is no difference in the mind of the practitioner between the two. (That is not addressed to you, I am talking about beginners).

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Old 11-30-2004, 10:37 AM   #29
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Tanto Shiai Demonstration

So, regarding the original question: Has any of the other Shodokan instructors (or anyone else) ever done this sort of resistance type pracitce during a demo?

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 11-30-2004, 06:22 PM   #30
PeterR
 
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Re: Tanto Shiai Demonstration

Yes

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-02-2004, 01:36 PM   #31
kironin
 
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Re: Tanto Shiai Demonstration

Quote:
Tim Wright wrote:
It's great that we're all agreeing with each other, but what about any other Aikidoka, i.e the majority who don't do Shodokan/Tomiki and who have different views on the validity of Tanto randori?

Does it potentially disagree with the principle of their style?

Forget other styles of Aikido. There are organizations led by students of Tomiki Sensei that strongly believe that Tanto randori especially when it comes to competitions is not valid and not the original intent that Tomiki Sensei had.

I don't know which side to believe, but I have heard quite different stories from non-Shodokan Tomiki-lineage students. They strongly believe it is the wrong direction.

The point is that Shodokan party line isn't necessarily the same as the original intention that Tomiki Sensei had. Good to keep in mind when discussing Tanto compeitions with those not in a Tomiki lineage.

I would reply more but I am swamped with work.
sorry.

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Old 12-02-2004, 06:25 PM   #32
PeterR
 
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Re: Tanto Shiai Demonstration

Who Craig?

Name a name of a student who spent any signifigant time with Tomiki who states that the incorporation of Shiai was not his original intent.

I know derivative organizations that don't do Shiai based on their own choices. They tend to be concentrated in your neck of the woods and are fragments of one man's organization. A man who does not fit the above description - at least to the point of being able to tell what Tomiki's true intent was.

I tend to shy away from Shiai myself although I want and need to do more randori. Shiai in Shodokan is an option usually done by university age students. It never was the primary direction of Shodokan but Tomiki was active until his death developing it and the randori method in general. Shiai and randori has not changed (some slight rules changes) much since then.



Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Forget other styles of Aikido. There are organizations led by students of Tomiki Sensei that strongly believe that Tanto randori especially when it comes to competitions is not valid and not the original intent that Tomiki Sensei had.

I don't know which side to believe, but I have heard quite different stories from non-Shodokan Tomiki-lineage students. They strongly believe it is the wrong direction.

The point is that Shodokan party line isn't necessarily the same as the original intention that Tomiki Sensei had. Good to keep in mind when discussing Tanto compeitions with those not in a Tomiki lineage.

I would reply more but I am swamped with work.
sorry.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-02-2004, 08:02 PM   #33
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Tanto Shiai Demonstration

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Forget other styles of Aikido. There are organizations led by students of Tomiki Sensei that strongly believe that Tanto randori especially when it comes to competitions is not valid and not the original intent that Tomiki Sensei had.
Sorry Craig but this is BS if I ever heard it. Imho of course. The particular methods of practicing the randori no kata, kuzushi practice, tsukuri, tai sabaki, ma ai, me tsuke - pretty much the entire core, foundation and grading requirements from Kyu to Dan levels of Tomiki's syllabus (which these other groups don't actually follow mind you) are designed to be effective against an attacker with a knife who is intent on resisting. These groups have their views on competition which they may have chosen to leave out of their practice, and like other elements and flavours of Aikido that is fine, but it is their choice, not as a result of Tomiki's teaching and concepts.

One of Tomiki's missions was to have Aikido stand side by side as a "modern" Budo next to Judo and Kendo and this included an approach to the training as physical education with a systematic method of teaching, training and measuring/testing one's abilities. Tanto randori and shiai are integral to his core concept, so is toshu.

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
I don't know which side to believe, but I have heard quite different stories from non-Shodokan Tomiki-lineage students. They strongly believe it is the wrong direction.
And their belief is just that - a belief. They are welcome to believe what they want but this has nothing to do with what Tomiki wanted which was pretty clearly defined. Before one follows somebody else's beliefs one should read the books that Tomiki himself have written.

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
The point is that Shodokan party line isn't necessarily the same as the original intention that Tomiki Sensei had.
According to whom? Tomiki taught certain people in the U.S. in an effort to promote his new system of randori. Instead they took from Tomiki what was useful to them (especially the theories on kuzushi) and tailored the training to suit their needs of a mainly self defence art and removed the competition aspects from the concept and "created" a new style. If they followed Tomiki's original intention they wouldn't have to do all that cutting and pasting.

Just what I understand from Tomiki's writings and from interacting with his direct students and their direct students in both the U.S. and Japan.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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http://www.mushinkan.ca
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