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Old 05-03-2001, 06:53 AM   #26
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
Location: Brazil
Join Date: Feb 2001
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ARE STANDARD GOING +/- ?

Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Yes - which is why balance is everything. The goal of competition should be to improve the overall martial ability - if the lessons can not be transferred then the purpose is lost. With that view it is not necessary to include all techniques if the lessons to be learnt transcend technique.

KAMI : Excellent idea in a theoretical way...In a practical way, I don't see that happening. I believe competitions tends to occupy all available space, sooner or later...

You know Ubaldo et al that I would have to stick something in there - red flag to a bull or in other words Moooo!!!

KAMI : My God, Peter! You "moo" quite well...

Please remember that the Uchideshi system of old and in fact today was not a lifetime thing. The whole concept of studying only with one teacher because of loyalty is quite a strange idea in this context. During the time as uchideshi which could be a year or five years you spent all your time at your masters side. What you learnt through diffusion or active teaching went beyond what normal students would receive but in the end you would move on or at least stop being uchideshi. Your relationship with your teacher may or may not continue although it usually did in some form.

KAMI : Excellent, again, Peter! (Wow! two straight hits in a post!!!)

The uchideshi system continues but as the number of ordinary students grows the ratio of deshi to uchideshi increases and theoretically the overall quality decreases. On the other hand as the number of students increases the chance of true talent showing up also increases - hopefully they have a chance to become uchideshi.

KAMI : That is happening in some Koryu and it worries me also.

Finally - hey I'm on a coffee break folks - the average student today has much more knowledge of history and a lot less inclined to succumb to myth and legend (at least over the long term). This in my mind results in a more well rounded martial artist.
KAMI : Remember the Jim Jones Syndrome...And remember also how many students today succumbs to cults and "bad budo". Unhappily, in our time, many young people are disoriented and looking for father figures and cults as a way of salvation. And that leads to a lot of belief in myths and legends. Let's hope it will change for the best.
Congratulations on a very good post, Peter San!
Best


"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 05-03-2001, 07:39 AM   #27
PeterR
 
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Morning Ubaldo;

I have a small suggestion. When you quote a message during your reply we end up with most of your stuff in bold, not just the quote, except for a bit in the end.

You will notice that the beginning of the quote has something like

Quote:

and the end
What I do is cut and paste the comand B is for bold, quote is for quote, the backslash indicates the end of the command. I do this and it makes it easier to read and understand where you are even though you always label with you name.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-03-2001, 07:47 AM   #28
Mark Cochran
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I agree that shaking things up can lead to students droping out of a dojo. My Sensei often teachs us stuff that most people probable think don't belong in Aikido. He does this mostly because he loves to teach new things. Once he asked the class if we would be intrested in learing a nunchaku kata that he new from his training in karate, before he took up Aikido. We all said yes not knowing what was coming. Next lesson were banging our knees and elbows with nunchakus. We lost three beginer students who felt that such weapons didn't belong in Aikido. So those who stayed learned.
My Sensei is probable what you might call astarving artist. Our lesson fees are very low. Five dollars per lesson in the summer, and pay only if you have the money. If your broke the lessons are on the house. Is that good. Mabey it does allow for many to train who might not beable to train else where.

The meek shall inherit the earth. It is our duty to seek out and protect them.
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Old 05-03-2001, 07:51 AM   #29
PeterR
 
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Whoops - I did not think about the commands working. Silly me. Point is Ubaldo that there are simple comands which can designate what should be bold or called a quote. Very easy to use and very clear.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-03-2001, 12:50 PM   #30
Jim23
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Hi Eric and Andrew,

What I meant was "freestlye/sparring" randori. You know, like "you twist my wrist and I'll twist yours" -- anyway, it was just an example.

You're right, perhaps "money" was the wrong word. Feel free to substitute "ego" or "class size", if you prefer.

Peter said:

Finally - hey I'm on a coffee break folks - the average student today has much more knowledge of history and a lot less inclined to succumb to myth and legend (at least over the long term). This in my mind results in a more well rounded martial artist.

I couldn't agree more.

Peter, where's Quebbec?

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 05-03-2001, 12:58 PM   #31
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23

Peter, where's Quebbec?
Jim23
Jusst Norrth off Verrmont.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-03-2001, 01:10 PM   #32
Jim23
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Peter, good one!

Jim23

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Old 05-03-2001, 01:17 PM   #33
Jim23
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR

Jusst Norrth off Verrmont.
Peter,

I didn't know that you did that Ki Aikido jumping thing that Kami mentioned in another thread.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 05-03-2001, 02:08 PM   #34
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
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Unhappy SOME CONFUSION IN QUOTES...

Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Whoops - I did not think about the commands working. Silly me. Point is Ubaldo that there are simple comands which can designate what should be bold or called a quote. Very easy to use and very clear.
KAMI : Umph...I guess that's exactly what my son has been warning me against. I'll se if I can correct it. But have some patience. In some things, I'm a bit of a dumbhead
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 05-03-2001, 04:26 PM   #35
Erik
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I just had a thought on this subject. One thing I think I've noticed is that Aikido as a trend has gotten older. It seems that as sensei get older they tend to move away from the martial component of the art more into the softer realm. This has happened to me twice now and in my 30's I still value the physical component. What I'm thinking is that as sensei get older they tend to see things a bit differently than when they were in their 30's and 40's. Maybe they look back and think, "gee, 35 years and I haven't been in one fight. Who cares about the MA side of things, particularly, since at 60 years+ I won't be getting into a fight anytime soon." Or they realize that they've kicked the crap out of their bodies and don't want to put others through the same thing. I dunno, but perspectives change and consequently standards and focuses have probably changed along with it. I'd imagine that O'Sensei certainly thought differently about things in his 80's than in his 50's. I wonder if we aren't seeing much the same thing?

Does this make any sense, at least as to a possible reason that standards may have changed, if they have changed?
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Old 05-03-2001, 04:33 PM   #36
mj
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Erik... Awesome insight. I'm 36... haven't been in a fight for...weeks! 37 this month.
Maybe you're seeing things as they should be. Perspective is such a personall thing

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Old 05-03-2001, 06:32 PM   #37
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by mj
Erik... Awesome insight. I'm 36... haven't been in a fight for...weeks! 37 this month.
Maybe you're seeing things as they should be. Perspective is such a personall thing
You know, I did kind of state the obvious didn't I.

Let me add something. I think you'll find that the median age (what I meant by getting older) in most dojo is higher than it was 20 years ago. As the age goes up you'll find fewer folks willing to burn their knees up in suwari waza, spend time in koshi practice or able to work a physical practice in the same way someone in their 20's can. I've found older sensei (the median has certainly climbed there) to be very sensitive to this and seemingly less sensitive to the needs of the younger folks who can do these things and want to. Consequently, as we get older as a group, standards will change and they will almost certainly decline in certain areas because of this.
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Old 05-03-2001, 06:56 PM   #38
Jim23
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Hi Eric,

I tend to agree with you. Someone who is 50+ has a different attitude than someone in their 20s. Not necessarily regarding the martial aspect, but with regards to getting hurt in training. I'm in my late 30s and one of the reasons why I started aikido was that it wasn't too difficult to jump in with two feet and start training (actually the pace is a little slow -- I usually get more exercise taking a brisk walk or a swim).

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 05-04-2001, 05:00 PM   #39
Richard Harnack
Dojo: Aikido Institute of Mid-America
Location: Maplewood, Missouri
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Question Training Standards

What a topic!

In Aikido, and other traditional martial arts, you are likely to hear that everything has gone downhill since the Founder, since the Founder could rightfully be said to be the only one who practiced the art in its' "purest" form. However, this is not true neither is it historically valid.

Jigoro Kano is the "Father" of Judo. yet many of his direct students were much better technically than he. His particular strength lay in his ability to put the system together in the first place.

Morihei Ueshiba has been described as a "physical genius", that is someone who seemed to understand spritual and philosophical principles with his body. This led to his rather unique ability to literally "embody" his understanding.

What has happened is that standards have changed. Most Aikido organizations now have stated requirements for the various ranks, usually with some minimum number of hours of training. I remember being told that I was going to test no more than a week out from my exam. There did not seem to be any minimum, as my Sensei at that time would simply decide the you were ready for the next rank based on how well you were doing in class.

Presently, Seidokan has stated minimums for all ranks. While this does not "guarantee" quality, it does set the baseline for the student.

Quite frankly, I have trained with top ranked instructors from the "old days" and while they were impressive to watch, as "teachers" I have seen much better.

For me the "standards" are up to Aikidoka. a truly committed student can always surpass their instructor, and should. The instructor should always challenge their students within the student's abilities.
"Do not worry about people not knowing your ability, but worry that you have not got it."
(Confucius)

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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