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Old 06-14-2004, 09:49 PM   #76
Michael Neal
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

If you are not expecting the shoot I would say with confidence that it is near impossible to do anything like Kaitenage, striking, etc. Sprawling is effective because it is one simple movement that can be done almost instantly with practice. After the sprawl he will be open to a variety of techniques. I would use this discussion as an incentive to practice some of the less practiced aspects of Aikido: Chokes, sacrifice throws, etc. they are part of Aikido after all.
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Old 06-15-2004, 08:29 AM   #77
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

I disagree...depending on how well trained certain reactions are. If the reaction for the 45 degree pivot and crossface are well trained, I believe that would give someone a fair chance of pulling off most if not all of the different aikido techniques (though I have serious reservations about striking until the tackle or shot has been thwarted). I still think the sprawl would have a higher percentage against trained fighters in a UFC environment, or wrestlers at the high school or college level though. But against a less polished tackle attempt (as opposed to a well trained shot with good posture) there are methods in aikido that work just fine. Its more a matter of having the reactions properly trained depending on the environment.

Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 06-15-2004 at 08:34 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-15-2004, 08:32 AM   #78
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
No I said if you catch him in a failed atempt
Ahh, no you just added the words in bold. Yes, if it is a failed attempt, he probably will be bent over...if he doesn't switch off to the single, or just keep driving in for the double.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 06-15-2004, 09:53 AM   #79
Michael Neal
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Yes I added those words to further explain what I meant by catching him. If you catch him it obviously was a failed attempt.
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Old 08-08-2004, 09:56 PM   #80
Mark Tennenhouse
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

I've done some wrestling and judo but I really like the aikido answer to a tackle best. In wrestling there is a move called a whipover which you can see at themat.com. In aikido, we are actually using a variation on it called kaiten-nage. But, realistically, you have to do at least a half sprawl and use forward hip pressure to prevent Uke from pulling your legs in and to give you time to drive your arm underneath Uke's armpit. Unlike the wrestling sprawl and whipover, you don't have to bury Uke's head under your belly in the aiki version. But Uke's head will be below tori's chest. Then, tori can push uke's head down while driving up and over with the underhook forcing Uke into a somersault..This works against realistic wrestling attacks and it's on mario Sperry's Vale Tudo tapes. The purist aikido concept of never slowing down an attack and throwing at the instant of entry is extremely hard to live by. However, by using a half sprawl and hip pressure, Kaiten nage becomes a realistic solution to single and double leg tackles and is in keeping with the aiki principle of using the circle and uke's power to project him into a fall.
does that solve the question of multiple attackers? I'd say it does because it doesn't take much time to get the underhook and it keeps uke moving forward after a slight delay.
Mark T
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Old 08-08-2004, 11:06 PM   #81
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Don't be there.

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 08-09-2004, 02:44 PM   #82
Jorx
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote:
Don't be there.
Yes. Be safely in your home... Fighting is dangerous. Don't be there out in the streets...

I really hope you didn't mean that in "step out of the way" context.
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Old 08-12-2004, 11:02 PM   #83
senseimike
 
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Yes. Be safely in your home... Fighting is dangerous. Don't be there out in the streets...

I really hope you didn't mean that in "step out of the way" context.
I'm sure he did mean to stay home. A dead bolt lock and heavy furniture in front of the door is a good idea too.

Mike Taylor
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Old 08-13-2004, 12:24 AM   #84
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Yes. Be safely in your home... Fighting is dangerous. Don't be there out in the streets...

I really hope you didn't mean that in "step out of the way" context.
Hmmmmm. Sometime it no pay to get outta bed. I think a lot of time an answer is more than what appear. Like when sensei demonstrate technique and tell all to practice but depend on who you are what you really see. For Jorgan, this is more expanded version of "don't be there."

In the classroom, "don't be there" is simple enough to understand. When the attack arrives, you simply aren't there to receive it as it is intended. Moving in, stepping out, or turning your body will accomplish this easy enough. Outside of the dojo, this continues to apply but expands to be more preventative.

If you have a choice to take a lit walkway and a dark wooded path and you choose the dark wooded path then you are taking a more dangerous path than necessary and thus not achieving "don't be there." It is about the choices we make every day. By consciously considering the possible consequences of our choices "don't be there" can avoid a lot of unnecessary, potentially dangerous situations.

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 09-04-2004, 06:27 PM   #85
CNYMike
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jon Truho wrote:
I have been wondering, and trying to extrapolate from my limited knowledge of AIKIDO a response to a double-leg-takedown. Any suggestions?
Another thing to consider, at least as a starting point, is ukemi waza. They're not just breakfalls for landing safely; they contain the seeds for the counters to the techniques. So if all else fails, remember how to land and how to roll; think of it as a way to "blend" with the take down and work from there. Remember your aiki principles.

Have fun.

Hormat ...

Mas Mike
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Old 09-05-2004, 04:38 AM   #86
sjm924
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Jorgen,

There are reasons for why we wear dogi at my dojo. There are reasons why we practice barefoot (as "unrealistic" as it might seem for a "real fight"), and also reasons why we practice knee-walking and kneeling techniques and accordingly these things are interrelated. But if you don't know or understand the relationship between something like training barefoot and knee-walking (don't feel bad, many people don't) then perhaps you may not be qualified to criticise these methods. . . after all, how can you claim to be wiser than 2000 years of R & D?

Anyhow, what would I do if someone tried a DLT on me? Who the hell knows. I would go down. Then what? Maybe a guillotine choke or an arm-bar would pop out of my muscle-memory (another bonus to doing a technique thousands of times, in a formal manner). *Gasp* . . . an aikidoka with ground skills?? Shioda Sensei didn't go far from aikido's roots, and that's a good thing.
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Old 09-05-2004, 12:58 PM   #87
Chad Sloman
 
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

This thread just won't die.........

In July I happened to visit a friend of mine in Orlando who is a amateur freestyle wrestler and we worked out. Partly because of this thread and some others at the time, I actually got him to freestyle spar with me, wrestling vs. aikido. And I did try some different things against the shoot. What I gathered, and which is no surprise to me, is that the sprawl is the easiest method to use. I learned that in aikido we generally try to keep our opponents at arm's length and only come into clinch range after we've taken their balance to some extent, this method of evasion worked pretty well. What worked for me also was tenchinage/iriminage where I caught him as soon as he was shooting in. But if I was too slow and he got a hold of an ankle, then I was toast. It should be noted that I didn't use any atemi waza as he is my friend and we weren't striking each other which probably would have been in my favor. All in all, I'd say it was 50/50 aikido vs. wrestling. And for you nay-sayers who will say that he probably wasn't that good, he took second place last year in the Florida state amateur wrestling competitions, and he's a little over 200 lbs. So take that for what it's worth.

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 10-02-2004, 03:15 AM   #88
Wil Branca
 
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Go for the trusty "Sprawl & Choke"...

* I'm partial to a good, old-fashioned Adam's apple aqueeze myself (it tends to REALLY freak people out).

Hold for 15 seconds.
Release.
Take assailant's wallet.
By your favorite gal a new dress!

If you're squeamish about crushing someone's larynx, I SUPPOSE a traditional jugular cut-off type choke might be more humane.

To each his own...


Sapienta Arma Dedit
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Old 10-07-2004, 10:39 PM   #89
Shane Mokry
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

I tried the double leg takedown on one of my teachers a long time ago. It was real sneaky too. I went for the face and as soon as he started breaking balance I disengaged and went for the takedown. I was immedietely in a rear naked choke with my balance broken so that I was literally hanging myself.

I tapped out.

Shane
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Old 10-13-2004, 12:57 PM   #90
Raziel
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

I heard my friend said that most of the (not all) fast Taekwondo kick is not so pwerful, even it's fast, but wouldn't hurt too much if kick on you. No idea if this is true.
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Old 10-29-2004, 01:47 PM   #91
Pankration90
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Sprawling doesn't always put both people flat on the ground. A sprawl is basically just moving your legs and hips away from the opponent quickly while pushing your weight into him (stopping the shoot and making sure he can't get a grip on your legs). A double leg takedown, when stopped, doesn't always leave them over extended. Many times they are left in a crouched position (with one or both legs still under them for the most part) and some degree of balance. When you sprawl in a situation like this, neither of you are flat on the ground. Your legs and hips are still sprawled back and you are still resting your weight on the opponent, but you can easily disengage and move away or do any number of things.

When doing sub grappling, we almost never got them flat on the ground when we sprawled. They were usually in the crouched position I described above. From there, I would usually try and go for a guillotine. If that wasn't working, I would pull them back into my guard and stretch them out, and eventually sweep them. I wouldn't pull guard in a street fight, but I was just using that as an example of situations where they aren't flat on the ground (if they are flat on the ground, taking their back or just getting up are easy, but you can't pull guard when someone is already laying down ).
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Old 10-29-2004, 02:53 PM   #92
Michael Hackett
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Played with this last night after class for a few minutes with a friend who is nidan in aikido and now studying BJJ as well. Two things worked well when I went in for the takedown: an atemi in the form of a knee to the face; and a strong irimi movement, a tenkan, and then iriminage. We played with a kaitenage-like technique too a couple of times that seemed to have promise. As I would start for the takedown, he would get off-line and push down and in on my head as he lifted on my nearside arm. It was very natural to continue my attack on his single leg when he got off line and shifting to the single leg had the effect of almost breaking my balance. With a little urging I was gone. Not pretty, but it was fun to experiment with a little.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 10-29-2004, 03:15 PM   #93
Aristeia
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Hi Michael
As an aside do you have much experience performing the double leg takedown? I mean it's great that you're experimenting this stuff, and heaps of fun
But just keep aware that any counters you come up with in these sessions have to be taken with a little pinch of salt unless the person doing the shot has some experience in it.
It's a bit like a couple of karate-ka's playing with a wristlock and deciding it's not effective because they'd just punch their way out. They may well do so the way they were doing it, but would struggle a bit more with that strategy against an experienced aikidoka who is taking balance, blending etc.

If you do have experience in performing the double leg, forget everything I just said.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 10-29-2004, 04:47 PM   #94
Michael Hackett
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Mr. Fooks,

Your point is well taken. The double leg takedown was my favorite technique in four years of scholastic wrestling and a couple more years in intramural wrestling, largely because of my relative short stature. It used to work really well for me. As I mentioned, we were just playing with the DLT and going pretty easily. My sempai is very skilled and cat-like, so it probably wasn't the greatest match-up around either. Sort of a dump truck racing a Ferrari. With the exception of the knee to the face atemi, Nage would have to be both quick and skilled to pull off the other techniques I mentioned.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 11-23-2004, 11:17 AM   #95
rob_liberti
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

I would like to comment on a few points.

>Use what works, that to me is "aiki".
It is ironic to read such a "surface level" understanding of a word that means "depth".

>your delivery system must be very solid and only way to get it solid is to train it with uncooperative partner with unpredictable movement

The "only way"?! Here is my way: Practice applying aikido principles with a cooperative partner with predictable movements. Slowly but surely increase the speed, make the movements less predicable, and increase the resistance - UNTIL you can get it so solid that it works well with uncooperative attackers using unpredicatable movements.

--
Stabbington Hoboneas Esq III wrote:
In the grip of an adrenaline dump, timing and relaxation go out the window and there are no large muscle group techniques to fall back on like the case with striking and grappling arts (where strength and/or striking power has value in the respective delivery system)

This is where the footwork comes back into the picture, its not just to get you offline I believe, its to allow you to "catch your breath" even while somebody is attacking you. The purpose of footwork is evading the initial attack with a secodary purpose of putting you into a better tactical advantage. If you can keep evading until you are in just the right place, at just the right moment and after the biggest effects of the adrenaline has passed, Aikido happens.

The best thing to do with threads like these "what technique works against this other technique or attack?" is to frame the question in the following way: "how does Aikido's delivery system / fighting strategy/ fundamental principles deal with this technique or attack?" and answer it out of your own experience.
--
That was really well thought out and I wanted to comment on it as well. I specifically train large muscle group movements primarily, and then add smaller movements like wrist locks or whatever as a secondary movement on top of the primary movement. In the heat of the rush, I'm confident that what I'm teaching will still be available. We spend time minimizing these movements in terms of efficiency - but we also challenge things (in a level appropriate way) and have the fall back of making the movements bigger when things start to fall apart. This accomplishes training to get the most bang for your buck with a fall back, as well as making the movements a big as possible - while maintaining that fragile connection for aiki to really understand what we are doing.

I don't know if this is a "delivery system" per se, but I think it is reasonable and builds effectiveness in increasingly escalated situations.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 11-23-2004 at 11:22 AM. Reason: clarification..
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Old 11-23-2004, 11:27 AM   #96
rachel
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

I'm only shodan in Aikido, but I have just begun taking Judo as well (it's kind of required in my university...) and, just the other day, we did a double-leg take down. My partner couldn't throw me, no matter how hard he tried. His timing was good and he basically doing it correctly. The problem was that either his leg would just bounce off of mine (my ki is so strong j/k) or I would just remove me leg a moment before he tried to swipe it. I could then easily couter-swipe. I guess all I'm saying is that my Aikido training defeated the double-leg take down!
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Old 11-23-2004, 12:50 PM   #97
paw
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Rachel Klein wrote:
The problem was that either his leg would just bounce off of mine (my ki is so strong j/k) or I would just remove me leg a moment before he tried to swipe it. I could then easily couter-swipe.
What you're describing doesn't sound like a double. He shouldn't be swiping at a leg, instead the point of impact should be his shoulders against your thighs.

Pictorially, you can find an example here

Note in the link, Gutches takes his opponent face first directly to the ground. For judo, there's no reason why he couldn't lift and slam his opponent instead.


Regards,

Paul
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Old 11-23-2004, 02:16 PM   #98
rob_liberti
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Great example! I would say that the guy getting thrown looks a lot more like the uke in the first picture.

I used to let the students just pick any of the weapons kata - from the same initial attack and practice adjusting in the moment to each kata. That wasn't too dificult to achieve; but then, I used to have a really hard time adjusting to any kata AND any variation because while the changes between each kata was a much more major movement, the changes from the variations were much smaller movements.

The answer finally came to me as I got a lot better at multiple attack. I learned to not directly face the attacker - like a deer in headlights. I'm always just a little turn off from them (which I create from my stance). By doing this, I can move much more freely and respond/react much more quickly.

So from my persepctive, it looks like the guy in those pictures who gets taken down by the double leg takedown has lost the encounter before it ever began.

It would have been incredibly hard for me to have worked this understanding out (and many other subtle things I learned using the cooperative/level-appropriate model) if I were in constant competition while training.

I think we do need to eventually check out what we are doing - and get more of a reality check - but not every day. And not before you can at least get what you're doing to be effective against cooperative partners who are giving you a lot of full-body resistance.

Rob
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