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Old 04-24-2001, 04:03 AM   #1
andrew
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Here's a quote from Karl Geis about Tomiki Shihan:
"He also felt that the concept of an Aikido that used off-balance with power and speed, rather than the traditional ideas in Aikido of using only speed and power, would be more easily understood by judoka who use off-balance regularly in Judo randori and are therefore already skilled in the art of off-balance."

Now, perhaps I misunderstand what is meant here by the term "off-balance," but I certainly haven't come accross aikido that uses "only speed and power." What I would like to ask is...
1: Could somebody who knows explain if the concept of off-balance in Judo is more than it sounds like?
2: Can anybody make sense of the "using only speed and power" bit?
(also 3: Could we do all this without anybody going off on a tangent to attack/defend Mr. Geis and just focus on the quote?)

andrew
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Old 04-24-2001, 05:50 AM   #2
ian
 
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I've always considered Aikido to 'unbalance' a person. To me this is not just physically positioning yourself or trying to get a swinging momentum (as you would in judo). Although in judo you would push in order to get a push back, and therefore use this to throw (as we do in Aikido), you would not strike somebody in the face to get uke to lift an arm or to try and move away from it (and thus unbalnce him). Also, as far as I know, you would not use a Kiai to mentally unbalance a person in judo (at least not to the same effect, as your opponent is aware of the attack type and roughly what you intend to do to them as people on the street do not). Also, judo starts in a grapple situation whereas Aikido usually starts before contact is made and therefore we get the opportunity to take advantage of 'commited attacks' whereby we can use the force of the attack.

In summary, in judo movement generation has to be done initially from stationary, and therefore it becomes harder to unblance someone. (Which I think may be useful practise for Aikidokas as well. ) Whereas Aikido generally starts with ukes body movement (which is why people often say you can't 'aikido' someone - though I would disagree).

Ian

Last edited by ian : 04-24-2001 at 05:55 AM.
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Old 04-24-2001, 06:50 AM   #3
Mark Jakabcsin
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Andrew,
You typed "He also felt that the concept of an Aikido that used off-balance with power and speed, rather than the traditional ideas in Aikido of using only speed and power,..."

Did you miss typing the word 'not'? Should it read "......than the traditional ideas in Aikido of using only speed and 'not' power,..."

Other wise I don't see the difference between "power and speed" and "speed and power." Just trying to get a clear picture.

mark
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Old 04-24-2001, 07:03 AM   #4
andrew
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Jakabcsin


Did you miss typing the word 'not'?
No, I quoted directly and accurately from http://www.karlgeis.com/origin.htm

If you've no power, you can't really do anything Mark.

andrew
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Old 04-24-2001, 07:11 AM   #5
PeterR
 
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Mark;

Read it again - it mean kuzushi with speed and power.

Most Aikido styles use kazushi, although they may call it something else, however with Tomiki it is emphasized sooner.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-24-2001, 08:50 AM   #6
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Hi folks,

Just my own thoughts on "kuzushi" here (that some of you have heard before, but oh well).

Some people translate kuzushi as "putting someone or something off-balance" but I'm not too sure how accurate a translation that really is. The way I picture kuzushi is more like a mudslide ("dosha kuzure") or what happens to a carefully constructed pillar of children's block when you start taking the bottom blocks out. (Ever played the game Jenga?)

One way I personally translate uzushi in this context is "an action or event that undermines or destroys an object's foundation to cause it to lose its structural integrity." (It needn't be an object nor does it have to have structure, though. I feel that someone can apply kuzushi to an idea, too...)

-- Jun

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Old 04-24-2001, 09:31 AM   #7
PeterR
 
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Hi Jun;

I often use the refrain

Take the balance
Keep the balance
Use the balance

when trying to ram home the concept of kuzushi.

The use of atemi itself is not in my opinion kuzushi but can be part of the process of taking the balance. The shout (kiai) I suppose can have the same purpose but I tend to be quiet so I really don't have the experience. When balance is taken there must be contact between tori and uke. In my opinion (love to here Chuck's take on this) before there is contact uke just unbalances himself - it is not the application of kuzushi.


One balance is taken and the action moves further into technique care must be taken to ensure that you continue to keep uke off-balance and finally use that off-balance to finish the technique.


Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-24-2001, 12:02 PM   #8
Mark Jakabcsin
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Andrew and Peter,

Thanks for the feedback. I will check out the link Andrew provided and see if I can't get a better understanding. Thanks.

mark
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Old 04-24-2001, 12:26 PM   #9
PeterR
 
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Dear Mark;

I suggest you go directly to the horses mouth.

http://www.tomiki.org/tomikionjudo.html

and its sister article

http://www.tomiki.org/tomikionjujitsu.html




Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Jakabcsin
Andrew and Peter,

Thanks for the feedback. I will check out the link Andrew provided and see if I can't get a better understanding. Thanks.

mark

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-24-2001, 01:17 PM   #10
Kami
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Smile KARL GEIS TEXT

Quote:
Originally posted by andrew
No, I quoted directly and accurately from http://www.karlgeis.com/origin.htm
If you've no power, you can't really do anything Mark.
andrew
KAMI : You can also write directly to Mr. Geis, asking him to explain his ideas. When I contacted him, he was quite a gentleman. I feel sure he will answer you in the same way.
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 04-24-2001, 03:48 PM   #11
Chuck Clark
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR

The use of atemi itself is not in my opinion kuzushi but can be part of the process of taking the balance. The shout (kiai) I suppose can have the same purpose but I tend to be quiet so I really don't have the experience. When balance is taken there must be contact between tori and uke. In my opinion (love to here Chuck's take on this) before there is contact uke just unbalances himself - it is not the application of kuzushi.


One balance is taken and the action moves further into technique care must be taken to ensure that you continue to keep uke off-balance and finally use that off-balance to finish the technique.
Hello everyone,

My take is... atemi can be a very strong strike or it can be a very subtle interference with any part of your body (or whole body or a whole bunch of INTENT...) and I see no difference in a soft parry which takes uke's balance and a soft (and possibly abrupt) hand in the face or suigetsu which takes uke's balance. If uke makes some sort of error and gives up their own balance, then of course, take advantage and don't let them get a strong structural base back.

Jiyushinkai flavor is to use the softest touch possible so as not to convey information to the uke. Soft doesn't mean WEAK or INEFFECTIVE!

I agree completely that once connection has been made during kuzushi-tsukuri it should be continued even if it changes in dramatic ways. This ability to keep the sente after taking it is of utmost importance in all budo practices.

I view the kake or finish of a technique to be a process of the dynamic interchanges between uke and tori up to the point where uke's structure can not maintain functional form and becomes ballistic. If the connection is right, I think most (if not ALL) of the force should come from uke. Tori can always add some if necessary, but it is dangerous to give energy to a skilled person.

This is interesting and I wish we could get together to add the IRL aspect to the discussion. It'd be FUN!

Someday, perhaps...

Regards,

Last edited by Chuck Clark : 04-24-2001 at 03:50 PM.

Chuck Clark
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Old 04-25-2001, 07:04 AM   #12
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Clark

This is interesting and I wish we could get together to add the IRL aspect to the discussion. It'd be FUN!
I feel the same but distance and time being what they are. It will happen though.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-28-2001, 01:43 AM   #13
jimvance
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"Off-balance" and kuzushi

Boy that is a hard act to follow. But I thought I would throw in my two cents worth....

The Japanese term "kuzushi" was originally part of a three step process developed by Jigoro Kano. The other two parts are "tsukuri" and "kake" respectively. They describe a measurable (Japanese is hard here, not really like our Western analytical 1+1=2 mind) phenomena. The way I like to look at these terms (and this is my opinion, I do not have a Ph.D. in Japanese) is "breaking down" (kuzushi), "building up" (tsukuri), and "end result" (kake). It is the overall developmental motivation of all budo training applied at the most basic level.

These are terms that Judoka are well versed in, hence the allusion to it by Mr. Geis. The application of those terms in the West has given rise to other interpretations such as "off-balance" for kushushi and "fitting" for tsukuri. I think these are valid connotative interpretations. Add to this the practical and meaningful applications referred to by Chuck Clark Sensei and you can see where Mr. Geis may have been trying to make his point.

These are not just techniques performed on a willing robot, but living processes dependent upon interaction with your training partner or opponent. I believe this was the technical aim of Kodokan Judo under Jigoro Kano as well as Tomiki Aikido as created by Kenji Tomiki, and was reflected in the terminology they used to describe their systems. Most "mainstream" aikido did not use the same terminology, choosing to remain a separate entity from Judo in practice, philosophy, and application.

Jim Vance
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