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Old 10-26-2004, 03:23 PM   #476
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
James Giles wrote:
Who really owns the land? Are there any reliable sources out there: books, websources etc. from which this information can be retrieved?

Thanks, James
A long and complicated question, involving the Balfour Declaration from WW1, and on and on, back into biblical times.

The quick answer, tho: is to ask yourself--if Israel OWNS the land, then why are they "occupying" it? How can you "invade, and occupy" your own territory?

Not that I'm an expert, mind. I'm sure that there are points on this (on both sides) that I could well use more education, as Daniel has pointed out to me, in the past.
 
Old 10-26-2004, 03:46 PM   #477
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil wrote:
Oh please: Daniel--methinks thou doth protest, too much.
C'mon, Neil, this is my first "protest" in months! Too little, I'd say...

I don't have much new to add to what's already been said in our discussions. This, however
Quote:
one side is gridlocked by an extremist religious bloc (and no: I am not referring to the Palestinian's), calling the shots, yet blissfully free of conscription.
is new to me: what are you referring to?

Daniel
 
Old 10-26-2004, 07:57 PM   #478
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum wrote:
C'mon, Neil, this is my first "protest" in months! Too little, I'd say...
OK, OK: ya got me there.

Quote:
This, however is new to me: what are you referring to?
The Far-right Orthodox, is exempt from military service...correct? At least: AFAIK.

And yet: they are the most virulent advocates for a "Greater Israel."

They push the envelope: yet they don't have to "foot the bill."
 
Old 10-26-2004, 09:30 PM   #479
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil wrote:
The Far-right Orthodox, is exempt from military service...correct? At least: AFAIK.
And yet: they are the most virulent advocates for a "Greater Israel."
They push the envelope: yet they don't have to "foot the bill."
I'm not so sure the ultra-orthodox parties dictate the policy of the current Israeli government towards Palestine. Parties that can be considered ultra-orthodox have 16 seats out of 120 in the current Knesset. Historically, some religious parties were members of Labor-led left to center governments, led by pragmatic rather than nationalistic principles. In the currnet Knesset there is a nationalistic religious party that is among the most vociferous objectors to the pullout, but its base is army-serving and tax-paying.

Btw, the vote for the disengagement plan passed in Knesset today, 67 to 45.

Quote:
James wrote:
Are there any reliable sources out there: books, websources etc. from which this information can be retrieved?
The book I thought to be rather objective and to the point was Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict. Its last edition is 2000, so it doesn't cover developments after that, but I think it gives a good review of the history of the conflict.

Daniel
 
Old 10-27-2004, 06:50 PM   #480
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
James Giles wrote:
1) The Palestinians don't have the rights to the land, and so it is not an illegal occupation.
This is a perfect example of how old karma plays out hundreds of years into the future. The Palestinian claims to this land are far less clear than those of the Native Americans are to the land that was ripped off from them.

In the case of the Native Americans, there are actual treaties which were signed by native peoples with whom those treaties were negotiated by the government of the United States. It is easy to document how we abrogated those treaties or forcibly made the native leaders sign new treaties which were more to our liking. But essentially the parties are clear. Native Americans vs. the US government.

With the Palestinians it is nothing but a mish mash. No amount of legal back and forth between the great experts can possibly unravel the "ownership" of Palestine. The state of Israel is just as much a creation of colonialism as were the British and French "Mandates". I don't think that anyone really thinks that the British had a real RIGHT to give away what wasn't really theirs but had been won for them through military conquest. How far back to you go before you find a government authority in Palestine which actually was made up of the local people and not an invader of some sort?

The only legitimate thing to do is to look at who was living there, not who claimed ownership in the larger sense. It is quite evident that most of the Palestinians who have been displaced were resident on that land for many generations. They can sit on their old properties and point to where their grandfather did this or their great grandfather did that. This is their homeland in every real sense. Forget the legalese.

But realistically no one rationally believes that at this point anyone can just give back Palestine to the Palestinians any more than the Han Chinese will give back Taiwan to the aborigines or the Australians will give back Australia to their Native population. We won't be giving back the Dakotas to the Sioux or Central New York to the Mohawk despite quite legal claims with treaties that never were officially rescinded.

The British, who had no right to do so, gave a big hunk of Palestine to the Jews for their homeland. This was based on the Jewish belief that this land was given to them by God several thousand years ago. Their claim is a bit less immediate than what the Mohawks can show... But it's a done deal so to speak. It isn't going to get undone any more than any other nation in the world is just going to give back whatever territory they stole from someone else in the not too distant past.

The issue now is to simply understand that, if you take everything from one people just to make things right for another you have simply moved the Bad Karma from one place to another. Nothing has been made right. Until the Palestinians have their own land and a stake in their own lives there will be no end to this conflict. How can anyone think differently? Just look at how long the Irish Catholics have kept it up with the British and the Irish Protestants. The difference is that their conflict mostly hurts them. This conflict could spill out to engulf the world.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 10-27-2004 at 06:55 PM.

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Old 10-27-2004, 10:17 PM   #481
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum wrote:
I'm not so sure the ultra-orthodox parties dictate the policy of the current Israeli government towards Palestine.
Not "dictate:" but they certainly hold a power-base.

The religious Right in this country, in similar fashion: hold a strong influence over the Bush Admin...far more than their numbers might suggest.

But, I fully acknowledge my ignorance in the current political balance of the Knesset.

BTW: the recent vote of the pullout of Gaza is hardly a ringing endorsement for peace, as you well know. At best: it's a strategic withdrawal, the better to defend Israeli positions. The Palestinian's had no say in the matter, and the resolution is hardly resolved. There have been massive demonstrations by the settlers and the Right, opposing the resolution, and there are more promised, to follow.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-27-2004 at 10:20 PM.
 
Old 10-28-2004, 01:19 AM   #482
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:

With the Palestinians it is nothing but a mish mash. No amount of legal back and forth between the great experts can possibly unravel the "ownership" of Palestine. The state of Israel is just as much a creation of colonialism as were the British and French "Mandates". I don't think that anyone really thinks that the British had a real RIGHT to give away what wasn't really theirs but had been won for them through military conquest. How far back to you go before you find a government authority in Palestine which actually was made up of the local people and not an invader of some sort?

.....The British, who had no right to do so, gave a big hunk of Palestine to the Jews for their homeland. This was based on the Jewish belief that this land was given to them by God several thousand years ago. Their claim is a bit less immediate than what the Mohawks can show...
But one question that keeps popping up in my mind George, is where did the Jews come from? I mean, there had to be an Israel at one time, somewhere....isn't Jerusalem an ancient Jewish city that was established thousands of years before the British even conquered those lands?

If it can be determined that the Jews were the original inhabitants of the land, and it is indeed their ancestors who built their holy temples in Jerusalem, Bethelehem, and what-not, then perhaps they do have a right to it (????)

On the other hand, I am finally understanding how complex this matter is, especially considering that the Palestinians had been inhabiting the area up to the time the Brits gave Israel (back?) to the Jews; and I can understand the Palestinian's outrage.

But killing innocent Jews isn't going to make matters better. That just brings certain retaliation, and to the rest of the world, the Palestinians appear to be senseless murderers.

If the killing would stop, I believe that an agreement could be reached that both sides could be happy with.
 
Old 10-28-2004, 06:21 AM   #483
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Just look at how long the Irish Catholics have kept it up with the British and the Irish Protestants.
Also a good example of how its possible for an American administration to contribute to a (hopefully) lasting peace, rather than perpetuating grisly conflict.

Sean
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Old 10-28-2004, 09:39 AM   #484
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil wrote:
Not "dictate:" but they certainly hold a power-base... There have been massive demonstrations by the settlers and the Right, opposing the resolution, and there are more promised, to follow.
Well, Israel being a democratic state, I don't see anything wrong with that, do you? The important thing is whether the rule of law is enforced. In Israel, it is, at least as far as evacuation of settlements is concerned.

Quote:
BTW: the recent vote of the pullout of Gaza is hardly a ringing endorsement for peace, as you well know. At best: it's a strategic withdrawal, the better to defend Israeli positions. The Palestinian's had no say in the matter, and the resolution is hardly resolved.
You gotta start somewhere, don't you? I don't think anybody is naive enough these days to expect a "ringing endorsement for peace" from either side.

Daniel
 
Old 10-28-2004, 12:20 PM   #485
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum wrote:
Well, Israel being a democratic state, I don't see anything wrong with that, do you? The important thing is whether the rule of law is enforced.
Again, as far as being "wrong" or not is concerned: I do not know enough about the political underpinnings of Israeli politics, to say. But, yes: I'd say that a bloc of ppl who push for a "Greater Israel," while not having to supply the manpower from their own ranks for the frequent incursions into the Occupied Territories, IS wrong.

Quote:
In Israel, it is, at least as far as evacuation of settlements is concerned.
Just not, the very existence of the settlements themselves, being in violation of international law...not to mention the "Security Wall."

Quote:
You gotta start somewhere, don't you? I don't think anybody is naive enough these days to expect a "ringing endorsement for peace" from either side.
Gosh, how about we start with giving the Palestinian's the right, and the ability, to vote, and to ratify their own constitution...? How about we allow the Palestinian's to have some voice in what is going on within their own borders, instead of all this unilateral decision-making? Wouldn't THAT be a novel idea...
 
Old 10-28-2004, 12:34 PM   #486
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
James Giles wrote:
But killing innocent Jews isn't going to make matters better. That just brings certain retaliation, and to the rest of the world, the Palestinians appear to be senseless murderers.

If the killing would stop, I believe that an agreement could be reached that both sides could be happy with.
The metaphor of Amerindians to Palestinians is particularly apt. Was Geronimo a "senseless murderer?" Or, was he responding to a violent military invasion against his people, and his home?

Sure, we can tsk the methods of suicide bombings, but aren't they simply using all available methods to fight a violent and senselessly brutal Occupation? And, look at how long they've fought: after enough time and so little accomplished, can you hardly blame some of them for going overboard?

Personally, I think suicide bombing is a strategy that hurts the Palestinian's, in the end. If they are going to use a strategy that will end up killing themselves, then they should try directing their efforts against the Apartheid Wall, or the illegal settlements (which in themselves, are a misnomer. They aren't really "settlements" at all: more like armed fortresses). Sure, lots of Palestinian's would still die, but at least innocent Israeli's wouldn't be caught in the crossfire.

And yes, you're right: the solution IS easy (I think even Daniel would agree, all glibness aside)--a two-state solution, or some form of it. As Daniel correctly states: it's the implementation of it, that's so difficult...both sides simply do not trust each other.

But, the US support and funding of the Occupation does not help matters, at all. We give oceans of support for Israel; and drips of help, to Palestine. If we simply said to Israel: go clean house and end the Occupation (or else, no aid): we'd go a long way to ending the deadlock. But we won't: partly because our pol's are so in bed with Israeli interests. Wolfewitz, Perle, et al: are particularly close to Israel, and have even directly worked for them, on occasion.
 
Old 10-28-2004, 01:20 PM   #487
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil wrote:
I'd say that a bloc of ppl who push for a "Greater Israel," while not having to supply the manpower from their own ranks for the frequent incursions into the Occupied Territories, IS wrong.
Would you say that having non-military-serving Americans advocating for, say, sending American troops for a peace-keeping mission in Rwanda, is also wrong?

Quote:
Gosh, how about we start with giving the Palestinian's the right, and the ability, to vote, and to ratify their own constitution...? How about we allow the Palestinian's to have some voice in what is going on within their own borders, instead of all this unilateral decision-making?
You got my vote, as long as this doesn't involve rocket attacks on Southern Israel and suicide bombings.

Daniel
 
Old 10-28-2004, 04:32 PM   #488
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum wrote:
Would you say that having non-military-serving Americans advocating for, say, sending American troops for a peace-keeping mission in Rwanda, is also wrong?
That's what I've always liked about you, Daniel: you pose the tough questions...I never get off easy.

But, there's the element of "duration of duty," to consider. Sending American troops to a peace-keeping mission in Rwanda would NOT generally last 35+ years, AFAIK.

And then there are the considerations of doctrine. I WOULD oppose sending peace-keeping troops to Rwanda, if it were, say: a component of the Strategy for a New American Century.

Quote:
You got my vote, as long as this doesn't involve rocket attacks on Southern Israel and suicide bombings.
Well on this: we are in complete agreement.
 
Old 10-28-2004, 04:36 PM   #489
James Giles
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
The metaphor of Amerindians to Palestinians is particularly apt. Was Geronimo a "senseless murderer?" Or, was he responding to a violent military invasion against his people, and his home?
I believe Geronimo had a good excuse to kill. I am not proud of what my forefathers did when they came over here and slaughtered the Indians and stole their land. Like George Ledyard wrote, I think we are dealing with a lot of bad karma that has been stirred up from the past and I believe our government is still stirring up hornet's nests around the globe. That is the nature of world capitalism and greed I suppose.

But, I am not sure about the Palestinian/Israeli issue; I just haven't read up enough on the situation over there. I am going to purchase a book that Daniel gave me a link to (thanks Daniel) and do some other research as well on the subject.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Sure, we can tsk the methods of suicide bombings, but aren't they simply using all available methods to fight a violent and senselessly brutal Occupation?
I am not sure of the facts of what is really going on over there, but have the Palestinians tried diplomacy? As far back as I can recollect, everytime some sort of peaceful agreement is about to become a reality, a Palestinian suicide bomber strikes and ruins everything...at least that is the way the U.S. media makes it appear (???)
 
Old 10-28-2004, 08:39 PM   #490
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Re: Anti-Americanism

You're welcome, James - I don't know why it's so pricey from Amazon, but other sellers via Amazon have it for as low as $10.

Daniel
 
Old 10-28-2004, 09:50 PM   #491
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil wrote:
Sure, we can tsk the methods of suicide bombings, but aren't they simply using all available methods to fight a violent and senselessly brutal Occupation? And, look at how long they've fought: after enough time and so little accomplished, can you hardly blame some of them for going overboard?
Neil, I love your choice of words: "violent and senselessly brutal occupation" vs. "tsk the methods" and "can you hardly blame them". Violent and senselessly brutal terrorist acts didn't get them where they wanted to after so many years, so can you really blame them?

Quote:
Personally, I think suicide bombing is a strategy that hurts the Palestinian's, in the end. If they are going to use a strategy that will end up killing themselves, then they should try directing their efforts against the Apartheid Wall, or the illegal settlements (which in themselves, are a misnomer. They aren't really "settlements" at all: more like armed fortresses). Sure, lots of Palestinian's would still die, but at least innocent Israeli's wouldn't be caught in the crossfire.
Neil, the settlers are civilians. Population of Ariel, AFAIK the biggest town beyond the green line, is 18000, almost half of which are mostly secular immigrants from the former Soviet Union, and only 10% are orthodox. The majority of settlers, excluding a relatively small bunch of hard-core fanatics, is there for purely pragmatic reasons - the land is cheaper, some are close to major cities, jobs, etc.

Last edited by DanielR : 10-28-2004 at 09:56 PM.

Daniel
 
Old 10-28-2004, 10:28 PM   #492
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Re: Anti-Americanism

And taking it back to Iraq.

The Lancet estimates that post-war 100,000 Iraqi civilians died beyond the level that would have done so if the invasion had not occured.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

So much for saving the Iraqi people from brutallity.

Last edited by PeterR : 10-28-2004 at 10:32 PM.

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Old 10-28-2004, 10:35 PM   #493
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum wrote:
Neil, I love your choice of words: "violent and senselessly brutal occupation" vs. "tsk the methods" and "can you hardly blame them". Violent and senselessly brutal terrorist acts didn't get them where they wanted to after so many years, so can you really blame them?
And, I suppose you call emptying a case of bullets into a little girl (well after she is dead)...sensible? Or, perhaps you're putting this more recent crime under the heading of "regrettable, yet necessary for the safety of Israel."

Let me know when you make up your mind.

And yeah: when a bunch of trigger-happy soldiers armed to the teeth make murder so commonplace that the world simply shrugs its collective shoulders when still MORE deaths are touted off, when homelessness, death and misery become the way of life as the dividend of the Occupation: yes, I ask, in all honesty...

Can you blame them? (well, SOME of them, anyway. Not all Palestinian's are in agreement on the best course of action).

Quote:
Neil, the settlers are civilians.
"Civilians," which carry guns, shoot and abuse Palestinian's, as they choose, and are free to roam wherever they please, on ALL roads...which the Palestinian's are not, and have first rights to water (many of which, fill their nice swimming pools, with it), while nearby Palestinian villages suffer from water-shortages and diseases from poorly treated water.

Maybe I should go back to "methinks thou doth protest too much," after all...

Quote:
The majority of settlers, excluding a relatively small bunch of hard-core fanatics, is there for purely pragmatic reasons
Pragmatic or no: they are occupying the land, illegally, as in...violating international law.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-28-2004 at 10:47 PM.
 
Old 10-28-2004, 10:58 PM   #494
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
James Giles wrote:
I am not sure of the facts of what is really going on over there, but have the Palestinians tried diplomacy? As far back as I can recollect, everytime some sort of peaceful agreement is about to become a reality, a Palestinian suicide bomber strikes and ruins everything...at least that is the way the U.S. media makes it appear (???)
To try "diplomacy," you must have a commonly aggred-upon rep to speak for the Palestinian's. Since the IDF does a good job at squelching elections, this becomes very difficult. Basically, the task of Palestinian diplomat falls to Arafat. You also have to have some sense of societal order for a course of diplomatic action to be determined. The daily reality of the Occupation makes this difficult, at best.

It's also hard to negotiate with a group of ppl fed healthy and regular doses of fear, led by a man (i.e., Sharon) likely guilty of war-crimes (i.e., Sabra and Shatilla)...not that Palestinian's are all singing praises of Israel, EITHER: mind.

But yes, there have been some sporadic attempts in the past at diplomacy.

Understand, James: that the IDF is regularly engaging in criminal acts, roundly condemned by the world. The ONLY reason that they get away with it is their good buddies in the US, who supply the needed UN veto whenever a measure to condemn an IDF atrocity reaches the Sec Council.

P.S. I found an interesting website you might check out, for background. It seems pretty balanced, at a glance. It's geared for HS studies, but still...I like the even-handed approach.

Tell me what you think!

Teaching the Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-28-2004 at 11:06 PM.
 
Old 10-28-2004, 11:07 PM   #495
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
And taking it back to Iraq.

The Lancet estimates that post-war 100,000 Iraqi civilians died beyond the level that would have done so if the invasion had not occured.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

So much for saving the Iraqi people from brutallity.
Maybe we should ask the Iraqi's for help on how to conduct a fair election?
 
Old 10-29-2004, 12:18 AM   #496
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum wrote:
Neil, I love your choice of words: "violent and senselessly brutal occupation" vs. "tsk the methods" and "can you hardly blame them". Violent and senselessly brutal terrorist acts didn't get them where they wanted to after so many years, so can you really blame them?
But, to respond to your initial point:

That all depends upon who you mean by "they."

Israel commands an army. "They" can cease their violence, tomorrow.

Palestine has militants. Groups of different factions, with different methods, and goals. If Arafat were to make a pronouncement to stop all violence tomorrow, who would listen?

So I ask you: IDF violent and senseless acts never seemed to bring about much of anything, but ever-expanding and uncontrolled brutality. But, THEY can stop it, tomorrow.

Who's going to say cease-fire for Palestine, at this point? The Wall has them caged up in ever-increasing attempts to force them to move out. Settlements and limited-access roads divide up the Territories into patchwork no-man's lands. Different parts of the Territories are subjected to varying degrees of brutality, to further divide the populace amongst each other.

And with Arafat ill: who will listen to him at this point? No, IMO: the ball is all in the Knesset's court, and they won't budge, because they're the ones, applying the screws.

Sure, the suicide bombings are senseless, vicious, and ultimately self-defeating: but I don't know how I'd start acting, if I had an army camped out in my neighborhood, taking pot-shots at the neighborhood kids, or if said army hunted down its human targets with missiles.

I certainly wouldn't just go about my day without a thought to it.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-29-2004 at 12:25 AM.
 
Old 10-29-2004, 01:47 AM   #497
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Woah!!!

You go, Congressman Ryan!!!

(video. If the link above fails, go here and click on his October 5th speech.
 
Old 10-29-2004, 06:24 AM   #498
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil wrote:
Pragmatic or no: they are occupying the land, illegally, as in...violating international law.
So let's blow them up. Terrific.
Apologies to all for contributing to thread hijacking.

Daniel
 
Old 10-29-2004, 02:18 PM   #499
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Re: Anti-Americanism

I find it funny that many people that claim to "support our troops," yet only listen to the troops that have the same positive perspective of the war as they do. The truth is, there are quite a large number of veterans and current members of the military that are opposed to this war. In fact, they even have anti-war GI news letters. There always have been. They are a quite an interesting read, and probably one of the best sources as to whats really going on in Iraq. So, if you support the war, you are not necessarily supporting the troops. Same thing goes for not supporting the war.

In the own words of an Air Force Academy grad and veteran; Cliff Volpe:

"From February to April of this year, I backpacked around Iraq - mingling with the locals, traveling by public transportation, and exploring the country by myself. I found that Iraqis of all ethnicities - Arabs, Kurds, and Turkmen - routinely invited me to stay in their homes, fed me lavish meals, and went out of their way to show me around and make sure I stayed safe.

Without a doubt, Iraqis were the most hospitable, friendly people I have ever met."

-Cliff also touches upon how most Iraqis are much too proud to have a democracy pushed on them. They didn't like Saddam, but they don't like the Americans occupying their country either.
 
Old 10-29-2004, 04:47 PM   #500
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum wrote:
So let's blow them up. Terrific.
Apologies to all for contributing to thread hijacking.
No, now you're putting words in my mouth.

I never said this, nor do I advocate violence, on any level.

AND, you ducked out of my question...

Quote:
So I ask you: IDF violent and senseless acts never seemed to bring about much of anything, but ever-expanding and uncontrolled brutality. But, THEY can stop it, tomorrow.

Who's going to say cease-fire for Palestine, at this point?
Come on, step up to the plate. I am curious as to your perspective on this issue...even if we do not agree.
 

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