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Old 09-30-2004, 08:16 AM   #101
batemanb
 
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Dojo: Seibukan Aikido UK
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:

Yes it is.


Rgds
Me English bad. I should have written no it isn't

rgds

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 09-30-2004, 08:54 AM   #102
Mel Barker
Dojo: University of Louisville Aikido Club
Location: Louisville, KY
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Founder's
Weren't they the bad guys on DEEP SPACE NINE?
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Old 09-30-2004, 09:38 AM   #103
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
So it is impossible to reach Founder's ideal without learning how to absorb painful techniques, sorry Hanna
Szczepan, have you read the thread? I have been advocating a safe training in taking pain all along - not because I find it "necessary" but I find it interesting. Others have been trying to tell me it can not be done safely. Not that I am sure I ever strived for reaching osensei's ideal. Let's start another thread to try and find out which they were...
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Old 09-30-2004, 10:21 AM   #104
daniel loughlin
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

i would just like to say that i only was talking about taking some pain in yonkio not any joint locks at all
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Old 09-30-2004, 05:17 PM   #105
NagaBaba
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
This is the crux of it. I'm happy to go along on this understanding. However, I still wouldn't be advising a 14 year old boy to hang in there and take it, I'm not talking about the nerve pinch, I'm talking about the leverage on the shoulder joint or the wrists when locks are applied.

Rgds
All right, let's say 16 year old
Pain from nerve pinch is a byproduct of normal yonkyo lock. This lock attacks wrist, elbow and shoulder joints.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 09-30-2004, 05:22 PM   #106
NagaBaba
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
Szczepan, have you read the thread? I have been advocating a safe training in taking pain all along - not because I find it "necessary" but I find it interesting. Others have been trying to tell me it can not be done safely. Not that I am sure I ever strived for reaching osensei's ideal. Let's start another thread to try and find out which they were...
ooopppss sorry, wrong person :O I apologize to wake you up from fjord meditation

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 09-30-2004, 05:24 PM   #107
NagaBaba
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Daniel Loughlin wrote:
i would just like to say that i only was talking about taking some pain in yonkio not any joint locks at all
In yonkyo, as in pretty more other aikido locks there are several joints that are attacked in the same moment. And problem of taking pain looks like more generic imo.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 09-30-2004, 06:47 PM   #108
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
A lot of people, especially in the early years do not feel what they are doing to uke when they apply the pin, they apply too hard and too quick.
It took me a loooong time to get my ego down to a reasonable size to tell these people verbally to take it easy on my joints. In the dojo where I teach, almost everyone is of beginner level. I find it interesting that after an hour of working with beginners my joints ache much more than an hour of rigourous training with experieced people.

Charles Hill
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Old 10-13-2004, 01:13 AM   #109
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Just looked at the PAIN survey on AikiWeb's front page. At the present time, the majority (67%) say no pain is necessary to learn Aikido. To me, that is ridiculous; Aikido ranks amongst the most painful of all martial arts. Where have all these (you?) guys been training?

Sure, the masters can advocate no pain and chuck their ukes around with excellent skill, but is that how they learned what they know? And how many of those ukes are more floppy than firm? And how many of them get more floppier in time rather than firmer and tougher (while remaining responsive)? Seems to me something is amiss. Aikido without pain is Yoga. The pain need not be excrutiating every time, but it needs to be present, or on the edge of being present. All of my teachers have inflicted pain, some a lot, some more than a lot. I have only met one teacher who can put me on the mat with no pain - Ezra, no one else. Yet I know he trained hard when young and has the ability to inflict pain as I have felt that too. Who am I to think that I could do such? For me, it is more of a dream than reality. I will not chase such a dream, I have wasted too much time already. If I am ever to arrive, it will be through hard training, not dreaming. If I don't arrive, so what? Anyway, plenty of time for dreaming when I get older.

One thing that is important is to distinguish between correct and incorrect pain - the right kind does not damage you, the wrong kind does. Good teachers can pile on the technique and pain and not hurt you - strange, but true. The typical beginner trying to do the same will hurt (read, potentially damage) you with their bad technique. It's the same with throws - some can throw you with incredible FORCE yet you just bounce up off the mat smiling - their technique was excellent, enjoyable to receive. Yet others almost break your back by doing it too gently, helping you down even.

67%! Wow!
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Old 10-13-2004, 09:59 AM   #110
Bill Brownlow
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
Just looked at the PAIN survey on AikiWeb's front page. At the present time, the majority (67%) say no pain is necessary to learn Aikido. To me, that is ridiculous; Aikido ranks amongst the most painful of all martial arts. Where have all these (you?) guys been training?
As stated, I would agree with the 67%, you do not need to inflict pain to learn, but if you replace pain with discomfort my opinion switches.

Speaking from a BJJ background (also a painful MA), if I am learning a new technique (e.g. kneebar) My partner needs to tap when he feels discomfort due to pressure being applied to the joint (proper application of the technique), not just because I went through the motions and he feels nothing due to improper application. On the other hand, I don't need to go to the point of hyperextending his knee joint to learn the proper set up and execution.

To me discomfort is a natural part of training you take a little to help your partner learn and you give a little to learn yourself. But it ends (tap) before it becomes pain and one of you is unable to continue training.
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Old 10-13-2004, 12:41 PM   #111
Roy Dean
 
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Re: take the pain or tap out?

Rather than seeing how much you can take, I always find it more beneficial to practice blocking Yonkyo by extending energy through my wrists. Also, too much Yonkyo will result in intestinal distress later! Careful out there!

Roy
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