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Old 09-21-2004, 09:13 AM   #26
SeiserL
 
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Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Re: and wing chun doesn't win...

Mark,

You show a deep understanding of Wing Chun. I couldn't agree with you more on that level.

Compliments and appreciation.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-21-2004, 06:04 PM   #27
Chris Bull
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Re: and wing chun doesn't win...

Quote:
Mark Rasmus wrote:
...We have similiar exercises in Wing Chun, except we hold the shape instead of dropping the arm and relax while our partner presses on it...
Is this the "unbendable arm" exercise in Aikido?

Thanks for your posts Mark, it's nice to see someone speak with a degree of experience on Wing Chun. Are you practising Aikido in Japan currently, or were you put off by your experience with this teacher? Regarding what you say about Aikidoka "training an art form rather than training to fight", I tend to disagree.

Unless we fight with no absolutely rules, then we can never be truly engaged in combat, rather we are doing an approximation of combat. We can get quite close to "actual combat" by fighting with limited rules, where strikes, clinches and groundwork may all play a part, but this is not something we see in many arts, as sparring tends to be limited to the type of fighting seen in that style (e.g. normally no strikes in BJJ sparring, and no groundwork in Muay Thai sparring).

By this logic, I would argue that most martial arts teach an art form rather than a way of fighting. However, it is the essence of the art is the link to its use in fighting, and this is especially true of Aikido. Sensitivity, body movement, balance, etc. If it is a practitioners intention to train Aikido for "fighting" (I should probably say "self defence"), then they must understand these attributes in the context of using them against a resisting opponent. The principles remain exactly the same, it's just the execution may change slightly. This is where I suppose a little sparring couldn't hurt

Of course, we must accept that a large proportion of Aikido students are simply not that interested in fighting, and will probably never get into a fight for the rest of their lives. This is something that many people cannot seem to understand about it when they critisize Aikido. Which is entirely their loss.

Please accept my apologies if I am talking bollocks. I am certainly no expert.

Thanks,
Chris
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Old 09-21-2004, 07:00 PM   #28
unique
 
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Dojo: AIKIDO Kuwait Dojo
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Re: and wing chun doesn't win...

hello all;
Just as a reminder, please read this quote carefully:
"The Way of a Warrior is based on humanity, love, and sincerity; the heart of martial valor is true bravery, wisdom, love, and friendship. Emphasis on the physical aspects of warriorship is futile, for the power of the body is always limited." Morihei Ueshiba

Sincerely yours;

Khalid Allahou
Mushin AIKI Kuwait
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Old 09-22-2004, 01:08 AM   #29
Jorx
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Re: and wing chun doesn't win...

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
Grabbing someone's hands in chi sao is setting yourself up for a battering.
Matt I'm sorry but you missed my point a little. My point was that NOR grabbing someones hand NOR battering NOR throwing someone while doing chisao does not show or prove anything to me. It's a drill.

Learning complex trapping reflexes from a self-defence point of view has proved quite unefficent method. While all those drills can be very fun and skilldemanding they do not have much to do with real fighting.

Quite many Wing Chun Wing Tsun JKD etc schools include some form of free fighting. And EVEN if there are 2 high level practioners sparring freely, the trapping is the first thing to go out of the window...
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Old 09-22-2004, 08:36 AM   #30
Matt Molloy
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Location: Edinburgh
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Re: and wing chun doesn't win...

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Matt I'm sorry but you missed my point a little. My point was that NOR grabbing someones hand NOR battering NOR throwing someone while doing chisao does not show or prove anything to me. It's a drill.
And I think you missed that I was agreeing with you somewhat. Of course it's a drill but grabbing someone's hands whilst doing it is a bit daft as one would only be setting oneself up for a fall within the context of the drill.

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Learning complex trapping reflexes from a self-defence point of view has proved quite unefficent method. While all those drills can be very fun and skilldemanding they do not have much to do with real fighting.
And if chi sao were just about learning "complex trapping reflexes" then it would probably not be the best exercise. I think if you study it a little more, you will find that it's a bit more than that.

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Quite many Wing Chun Wing Tsun JKD etc schools include some form of free fighting. And EVEN if there are 2 high level practioners sparring freely, the trapping is the first thing to go out of the window...
It depends on what you mean by trapping. Perhaps you might try looking at the way they redirect each others energy to realise what chi sao is all about.

Cheers,

Matt.
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Old 09-23-2004, 06:06 PM   #31
Duval Culpepper
Dojo: NY Aikikai
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Re: and wing chun doesn't win...

I've been studying Aikido for about two years (5th kyu). With this said, I took a couple of Wing Chun classes this week. While I can see the practical applications of it, and the lethality of its strikes, I felt a lot more "scared" than when I was doing Aikido. The complete lack of movement is very strange to transition to from Aikido.

Not doing a tenkan around a roundhouse punch/hook, was wierd also. Although the stance I was instructed to use gave me a significant amount of balance, this was the first time my own physical strength ever really played apart in whether or not I was going to live through a fight. In Aikido atleast (I'd studied Karate for a while before hand.)

For the longest while after I started studying Aikido, the fact of being afraid of a larger/stronger opponent never really effected whether or not I'd consider entering into a physical confrontation with another. However, with Wing Chun...until you are very skilled, you're going to get into trouble at a frat party if a altercation escalates past words. (Speaking from a teenage point of view.)

Of course, this is true of any MA. But, bigons.

EDIT: Oh, I'm 18 now. Guess I'm not a teenager anymore...Brutal.

Last edited by Duval Culpepper : 09-23-2004 at 06:09 PM.
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