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Old 09-01-2004, 08:25 AM   #26
Nick Simpson
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Re: jeet kun do

Getting hit is nasty, it hurts and it confuses you, so do the sensible thing and decrease the odds of getting hit, especially kicked. It takes room to swing a punch, even more room to swing a kick in most cases. So get in close straight away and deny your sparring partner the opportunity/room to punch/kick. It's a lot harder to try and move backwards, it can be done if you get the attacker fully commiting to his attack and you move backwards and over extend him, taking him out of his pshere of influence and leaving him off balance and momentarily weak. I wouldnt recomend trying it on a JKD dan grade though, I tried it on a boxer once and got battered, going forward seemed to work ok though.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 09-01-2004, 09:16 AM   #27
kocakb
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
I tried it on a boxer once and got battered, going forward seemed to work ok though.
you are absolutely right..I realized it yesterday. I believed that I am better balanced than him - may be because of loving ko-iriminage - and I steped forwardly instead of stepping back. I was able to walk in and he lost his balance...I tryed it a few more times and as I see, he is not expecting-used to - that kind of an attack.

an other thing, I realized that he is almost trying to hit with a kind of outher yokomen !!! for example if his right food is on the front side, he is swinging his right hand like yokomen but from left to right (out to in)...an attack with the hand you guard, therefore it is too fast. If only I could grap and do an ikkyo ura...he would learn flying around

the day will come
happy training to all and thanks.
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Old 09-01-2004, 09:53 AM   #28
Nick Simpson
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Re: jeet kun do

Sounds like hes doing a kind of back-fist/urakken? Nice punch, try using jabs against him.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 09-16-2004, 06:29 AM   #29
Tim Gerrard
 
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Re: jeet kun do

If you both train together, then ask him to slow down. It sounds like too much 'fighting', trying to prove who's got the better art. Experement, work with each other, ask about each other's weaknesses/openings and maybe both of you will come out better for it.

Aikido doesn't work? My Aikido works, what on earth are you practicing?!
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Old 09-16-2004, 06:30 AM   #30
Tim Gerrard
 
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Re: jeet kun do

If you both train together, then ask him to slow down. It sounds like too much 'fighting', trying to prove who's got the better art. Experement, work with each other, ask about each other's weaknesses/openings and maybe both of you will come out better for it.

Aikido doesn't work? My Aikido works, what on earth are you practicing?!
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Old 09-16-2004, 07:06 AM   #31
ian
 
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Re: jeet kun do

JKD really has no form; Bruce Lee was very practical in that he encouraged people to use what worked for them. You can't really beat that, but aikido should be the same. Aikido is principles and not techniques. Sometimes you find JKD practitioners focus on linear strikes. Punch him with a round house, move in, and then see what happens. He is more powerful and more experienced in martial arts than you - why do you expect to have an advantage? Best thing is don't 'do' aikido on him. Just go at him with everything you've got (including chairs and pool cues) and if aikido comes out, well that's what's useful at that time.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 09-16-2004, 12:16 PM   #32
CNYMike
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Bülent Koçak wrote:
.... I realized that he is almost trying to hit with a kind of outher yokomen !!! ....
That would be the back fist. AFAIK, Jun Fan/JKD's backfist is meant to be as quick as possible, with a minium of cocking back. And Bruce Lee also preached that one should keep the strong side, or right side, forward (as opposed to a boxing style stance where you keep the strong side back, although Sifu Dan Inosanto advocates using both leads) so it can be difficult to counter.

Quote:
for example if his right food is on the front side, he is swinging his right hand like yokomen but from left to right (out to in)...an attack with the hand you guard, therefore it is too fast ....
Exactly. Your best bet is to use your evasive footwark as if it's a yokmen with the other hand, because from your persepctive, it's coming at the same angle. Defend the line, not the strike.

Quote:
If only I could grap and do an ikkyo ura...he would learn flying around
If your friend has actually had JF/JKD training and not just read a book or watched a video, then there is a good chance he will know about grappling. Jun Fan is also about being comfortable at all ranges of fighting, form kicking distance down to grappling and ground fighting. So you try to go for a joint lock, you could find yourself thrown or in a choke and wondering what the **** happened.

Bad idea.

Best thing you could do right now is work on your footwork. Get off the line, get both hands up. He uses the backfist, treat it as a yokmen from the opposite hand. If you can then FIND something, an opportunity for a throw or a lock, go for it, but don't go in INTENDING to do a particular technique -- that will get you clobbered. See as a chance to practice against different attacks, as well as learn how to handle combinations.

You could also renew your invitation to your dojo, and remind your friend that the followers of Bruce Lee's lineage, such as my Kali instructor, who also holds a JKD instructorship, embrace cross-training in ANYTHING. That's why Sifu Andy not only supported but encouraged my getting back into Aikido. Bruce Lee said, "Absorb what is useful; reject what isn't." But AFAIK, he was probably the only person who could determine that just from looking at something. It would be more in accordance with JF/JKD if he joined your dojo, actually studied Aikido, and then over time, found what's in there that he can add to his own bag of tricks. It wouldn't be Jun Fan Gung Fu, but it would be part of his JKD arsenal. Something to rhetorically jab him in the ribs with.
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Old 09-16-2004, 12:18 PM   #33
CNYMike
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Tim Gerrard wrote:
If you both train together, then ask him to slow down. It sounds like too much 'fighting', trying to prove who's got the better art. Experement, work with each other, ask about each other's weaknesses/openings and maybe both of you will come out better for it.
I agree, wholeheartedly. Jun Fan/JKD people should embrace cross training. You can both learn from each other. You'd be doing O Sensei and Bruce Lee proud if you did that.
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Old 09-16-2004, 01:28 PM   #34
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Re: jeet kun do

Hey there All...

I am a student of Jun Fan/ eet Kune Do in Rhode Island under Raffi Derderian (lineage Lee-> Inosanto-> Seaman-> Derderian). I'll throw in a couple of insights (take what you will as my two cents is sometimes not even worth that much).

Scezepan Jaczuk stated that you have a rare opportunity here and he is right. Your JKD friend will probably fight very unorthodox and if he is worth his salt as a training partner, he will demonstrate the strengths and weaknesses of what he is doing so that you can leanr to defend against and apply said techniques.

Jordan Steel also made a good point. Some one who applies rapid attack methods will not just stand there after you have applied a technique and allow it. You must use atemi waza to strike and distract your opponent in order to steal his balance. Remember, just because he thinks aikido is defensive doesn't mean it has to be.

Michael Galager who trains with my teachers teacher, will testify that any JKD guy will have an open mind and be willing to take in new prinviples to apply to their own fighting theories. JKD is not a hodge podge martial art, so not everything works within it's frame work all the time. Sometimes things have to be adapted. The main thing we can do is learn from one another.

One of the guys i train with on occasion is named Joe Pomfret. He is a MMA fighter and an incredible grapler. One of the things he says all the time is to make sure that you turn every one of your opponents movements into a mistake. If you keep them off balance, your attacks are more effective as you are attacking their attacks from a postion of strength.

IMHO, keep training withthis guy as you will learn alot about what works and what needs work.

Thank you very much for your time and good luck with your training.

Regards,
WalT
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Old 09-16-2004, 03:32 PM   #35
Chris Bull
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
.

You could also renew your invitation to your dojo, and remind your friend that the followers of Bruce Lee's lineage, such as my Kali instructor, who also holds a JKD instructorship, embrace cross-training in ANYTHING.
Yup, completely agree.

Your friend's criticism of Aikido seems to go against the JKD philosophy -

"The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike ; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease."

Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do

Notice too that Ikkyo is in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. I know it's a common technique in many MA's, but this seems like the Aikido version given the shomen-uchi attack and the tenkan. Anyway, the point is that Bruce Lee took the time to at least watch - probably practise - Aikido and was able to take something from it.

Cheers,
Chris
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Old 09-16-2004, 11:09 PM   #36
CNYMike
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Chris Bull wrote:
.... Notice too that Ikkyo is in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. I know it's a common technique in many MA's, but this seems like the Aikido version given the shomen-uchi attack and the tenkan ....
What page? (he asked, hoping no one actually notices he never read his copy)
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Old 09-17-2004, 03:00 AM   #37
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Re: jeet kun do

Stop competing with him. All the time you are trying to prove that Aikido is better, you are in competition. If he doesn't want to invest any time in studying the art, he has little chance of understanding it, there's absolutely no need for you to try and prove it to him, it's a waste of your energy. Let him get on with his thing, you carry on training, one day things willl be different.

regards

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 09-20-2004, 04:51 PM   #38
Chris Bull
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
What page? (he asked, hoping no one actually notices he never read his copy)
Well I don't know how much versions there are of the book, but in mine it's on page 123.

There are a couple of pages of drawings called "Studies on Judo and Ju-Jitsu", and it's right at the end of those.
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Old 09-20-2004, 10:10 PM   #39
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Thumbs down Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Bülent Koçak wrote:
But he attacks very fast and you know If I answer with an irimi nage as fast, I am afraid of being harmful.
There's some of the problem.
He can pull his technique easier than you can pull yours because yours interacts with his body more.
You pull the technique so he doesn't end up on his head & he says it didn't work.
So you're playing in his sandbox & ultimately doomed to failure.

But if you can ignore his chest-beating, you can learn quite a lot in the long run.
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Old 09-21-2004, 10:13 AM   #40
CNYMike
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Chris Bull wrote:
Well I don't know how much versions there are of the book, but in mine it's on page 123.

There are a couple of pages of drawings called "Studies on Judo and Ju-Jitsu", and it's right at the end of those.
Thanks!
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:06 PM   #41
heyoka
 
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
Stop competing with him. All the time you are trying to prove that Aikido is better, you are in competition. If he doesn't want to invest any time in studying the art, he has little chance of understanding it, there's absolutely no need for you to try and prove it to him, it's a waste of your energy. Let him get on with his thing, you carry on training, one day things willl be different.

regards

Bryan
I agree with this. Also, in reference to the bar scenario on the previous page, I think the best advice is to just stop going to bars.

All is well.
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Old 10-03-2004, 10:16 PM   #42
CNYMike
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Chris Bull wrote:
Well I don't know how much versions there are of the book, but in mine it's on page 123.

There are a couple of pages of drawings called "Studies on Judo and Ju-Jitsu", and it's right at the end of those.
Got a new copy of "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" (meaning my copy will soon pop up. ) and found the drawing you mentioned. It is on page 123. The three little guys at the bottom are doing shomenuchi ikkyo, but there's two little guys doing what looks like the nikkyo pin. No caption to confirm it is Aikido, but one of the little guys is wearing a hakima. Wonder what the original poster's buddy would make of that, though?
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Old 10-04-2004, 12:21 AM   #43
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Re: jeet kun do

Try to learn more about parying. IMHO even though your late on your footworks but good in parying he may have some difficulties touching you. Also remember that parying is not a block, it could be a prep for trapping, grabs, interception, and perhaps many more.... good luck!
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Old 10-04-2004, 10:34 AM   #44
kocakb
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Re: jeet kun do

thank all of you for your posts...since I've posted this thread, there are some changes in my opinion. At least, I have realised that he is not as fast as I thought. He seemed to me very strong at the beginning but I saw that he looses his balance very easy. Only thing I have to do, is "not" stepping back. Not standing in his circle. I know, he is a black belt and me a blue for one week, but I don't care anymore about his thoughts.

He came to my Kyu test last week. After the test, while we were walking, he showed me a high wall and said "you should climb to the wall 50 times per day, to be effective without kicks in a fight"...I did not reply; you aikidoka's, you know that there is no need to reply. I am happy to stand on my foot. On both of them...

greatings from Istanbul and happy training
B.
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Old 06-07-2005, 12:30 AM   #45
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: jeet kun do

This a great thread! I'm a JKD practitioner myself and have been one for 10 years before I just got into aikido. Everything you guys are saying and what not are pretty good and the thinking is relevant...except for the one guy who said to throw stuff at the JKD dude! I'm sorry...but that kind of strategy wouldn't work on any JKD guy...or at least on me! Also...one thing I find suspect about the thread starter's friend is that he's a black belt in JKD? Unless this guy's JKD is modeled more after one of the other styles or elements of JKD which encompasses a budo format which has coloured belts...but other than that...Bruce Lee didn't believe in budo or belt/sash rankings or whatever! He found that stuff irrelevant...and to be honest...I do to! However...if that's not the case...then...this guy's just pulling a fast one on you, if you know what I mean? LOL!
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Old 06-07-2005, 11:45 AM   #46
CNYMike
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
..... Bruce Lee didn't believe in budo or belt/sash rankings or whatever! He found that stuff irrelevant...and to be honest...I do to! .....
On the other hand, Sifu Kevin Seaman, who, remember, has instructorship from Sifu Dan Inosanto, once explained how he decided to award sash ranks to reward people for their effort. He asked Sifu Dan if he could do it, and Sifu Dan said, "Sure" (or word to that effect). "And that was good enough for me," Sifu Kevin finished.

Feel free to take it up with him if you don't think he shouldn't have done it.
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Old 06-07-2005, 04:47 PM   #47
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Dan Guthrie wrote:
Imagine this: you go into a bar and put your sweater on your stool. You go to the men's room and when you come out your sweater is gone and you can see a drunk walking out the door with your sweater. How many JKD kicks does it take to get your sweater back? A simple sankyo gets the drunks attention and your sweater back. JKD sends the drunk to the hospital and your friend to jail. Aikido gives you the ethical option of a nonviolent response.
JKD breaks bones on purpose.
Actually, if I was foolish enough to leave my sweater unattended, or at least asking the bartender to keep an eye on it for me... then I'm the fool, not the thief.

Not to mention the fact... it's a stupid sweater! What? 10, 20, 30, 40 bucks at Dillards? Big deal. Go buy another one. The guy obvioulsy needs it more than you do, or he wouldn't be "stealing" something you left alone in the first place!

You really wanna lock up the poor guy in Sankyo for a piece of clothing? Sheesh... let it go!

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Old 06-07-2005, 10:21 PM   #48
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Re: jeet kun do

I wouldn't have problems with them awarding sash ranks in JKD or belt ranks...I personally don't think it's appropriate because it "systemizes" the art even more, you know? Of course...if an instructor wants to do it or whatever and Sifu Inosanto says it's fine...then...that's okay, you know? Just a question though, what would be the requirements to make rank in JKD? ; )
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Old 06-08-2005, 04:45 PM   #49
Dominic Toupin
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Re: jeet kun do

Take a look at this video. It contains a lot of things not related to this subject but It shows how aikido can be use in sparring.

http://www.yoseikancanada.ca/v_yo_qt.html

Dominic
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Old 06-15-2005, 08:07 AM   #50
Randathamane
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Re: jeet kun do

Quote:
Bülent Koçak wrote:
Hi to all,
Recently, I am training with a JKDoka, having about 6 years of experience and a black belt and is physically stronger than me. (I am a 3. Kyu yet )...

He does not like aikido and on his opinion we are too slow on fast and continuing attacks (decided that after watching all of my mpegs)… I don't care much, first of all I know that I am a newbie, and I do aikido just to do aikido. However, for my satisfaction, I want to see that I can, at least, stand on my foot.

The problem is, he strikes too fast, a punch is followed by an other added with kicks…he does not let me to move to his back side, and forces me to use a straight line - stepping back. I am almost able to stop one or two of the yokomen strikes by blocking. I know it is wrong, I should direct it and not block, but the second punch (tsuki or yokomen) follows very fast and I do not have enough time to move. The result the third punch ends on my body…(he smiles thereafter on his victory, which gives me an opportunity to hit back

I am sure; some of you have also a JKD background. Should I carry stones in my pocket for defense or just run away as fast as I can (you know, moving is aikido)

Regards to all and happy training,
Bülent

Main assumption of aikido is that the attack is hell bent on First intention striking. That is " i am going to hit you with this one- all my strength and energy is going into it and it will land" E.G hay maker... This is where things start to fall apart and become undone. Aikido is not designed to deal with jabs and kicks seem none existent... My only possible advice is to think weapon or to cross train.

Think weapon- Cut up shomen as you would to parry with the bokken moving in- it is possible that this cation could catch him off guard as he already expects you to go backwards.

Sorry chaps- but this is something that aikido does not cope with well. hope you find a solution soon.
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