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Old 01-31-2001, 09:05 PM   #101
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
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Quote:
Nick wrote:
still, calling it "rubbish" is a bit strong... not sure you would enjoy me calling your opinions and anecdotes "rubbish"... plus, IMO, they made sense...

Nick
Didn't he call us complainers?

By the way, there is such a thing as American Karate and I seem to recall that Jeet Kun Do broke with it's traditional roots as well. They seem to have done just fine.

Quote:
Nick wrote:You're right, all of this tradition, respect, discipline garbage has really got to go... we should shake hands before we work out, take O'sensei's picture down from the wall, and stop talking about this 'ki' garbage... as long as we can toss someone to the ground, who cares if we move from our hips? Big arms are better to show off anyways...
What does any of this have to do with tradition? Virtually every athletic discipline on the planet understands where power is generated. Doesn't mean they do it but the concept is clearly not unique. I once had a surprisingly intelligent conversation on center with a Yugoslavian basketball player. He very clearly understood the concept and he didn't need a picture of O'Sensei.

What's wrong with having big arms?

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Old 01-31-2001, 09:31 PM   #102
Jim23
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 482
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Hey Nick,

I actually had to go back and look at previous posts to understand how we got to this point.

Originally, I was commenting on the overuse of the Japanese language in dojos, not about tradidion, per se.

The "rubbish" comment was due to my frustration reading posts by people who completely disregarded previous posts.

I still think the rubbish should go. Rubbish meaning the "overemphasis" of tradition. I found this afterwards and was quite amazed http://www.aikiweb.com/language/sensei.html

Now please don't think that I'm suggesting anything by this link.

Jim23
Never surprised, but always amazed.

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 01-31-2001, 10:01 PM   #103
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
I still think the rubbish should go. Rubbish meaning the "overemphasis" of tradition. I found this afterwards and was quite amazed http://www.aikiweb.com/language/sensei.html

Now please don't think that I'm suggesting anything by this link.
Since I brought that to this table, I will suggest something by it. If the word sensei were done away with, a lot of people would get a better perspective on what their teacher is. A teacher.

[Edited by Erik on January 31, 2001 at 09:27pm]
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Old 01-31-2001, 10:27 PM   #104
Tony
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You are right Mr Erik

A teacher is just that, a teacher.

Whom are we to negotiate wisdom unusually from entirely unknown aikidoki that disengage absolutely from any real opportunity that manifests itself from without itself, even though no one cannot escape from the expression that it's unusual grasp of persuing that which isn't obviously known to most people, and don't understand anything except that which clones itself to the misunderstanding of others.

Now I ask you. Whom are youm?

Others cannot under-stand. I over-sit.

Some are upp-ressors. Others are down-pressors.

O-Sensi and Jah should comnine as one!

Tony R.
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Old 01-31-2001, 11:14 PM   #105
Tony
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I am oh so very sorry about my misinterpretation of unusually intrepid calculation of wrong technique. You see, the king's language cannot change due to fashion and unusual jokes regarding whatever people think might be changing times. Uke and nage should be in the place where they feel that outside influences are inconsequential due to the negative impact of duplicities from outside of our world of impact - unless it matters!

Does it? Ask another. If it does, find out why. If it doesn't, find out why not.

unless we take the approach of cross-representation, who are we to say yes or no?

Aikido is about harmony. Is it not? Then why don't we do that which isn't unusual? Take the high road. Jump up to the right level. What's wrong with that?

I say nothing's wrong with that!

Am I wrong? I think not. Press on. Go forth! We know that we are right.

The process of enduring the worst is the way to defeat those who feel that they are going into the jungle of undisclosed relief. If relief is what you seek in your aikido, consider this: not all do. The teacher, or sensi, is the answer that many feel could be the low road of understanding or perhaps the high road. right?

Maybe not. We all want to be noticed for things we know or do not know, whether we find comfort in education or not!

And who is right? You? Me? Everyone?

Methinks not! How can we all be right together in disunity. Especially on the day we question as being THE day of all days (or months?). Time marches on with or without the followers or the leaders. Regardless of whether we agree or disagree with those whom we may agree, we are never sure if we are right. Or are we?

That is the special question. It's not really nage or uke, is it?

I thought not!

Understandably so, until we think and find commonality in our persuits we will not necessarily win or lose, we will be the final consideration of all our fascination in this unusual, but happy place that we find ourselves just doing what we do, until someone interferes and we surge forward to undenieable friendly spaces that we didn't know existed. Until now.

I could go on, but you probably wouldn't understand anyway.

Why can't I be understood? I am not too far from being misunderstood. Am I not? Unless if it's mid-week and you aren't too hung up on formalities or similarities, or other strange opinions.

Umgaway!

Tony R.
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Old 02-01-2001, 08:20 AM   #106
Magma
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Do symbol

Hey Jim,

Be careful there, Jim, if you just make this personal rather than responding on point to my arguments it will look like you have nothing to stand on.

Regardless, I don't think that this thread is going to settle anything or convince anyone. In short:

Worms everywhere.
Big can.
Now empty.

BTW, Tony, where are you from?

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 02-01-2001, 09:34 AM   #107
Frugal
Dojo: Ki-Shin-Kai
Location: Bristol, UK
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 6
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Quote:
Magma wrote:
I completely agree with Frugal. Higher etiquette does not exist in our daily lives, and it's presence in our training reinforces the gravity of what we are doing.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim
I know this has digressed from the initial comments, but I feel I should say it anyway...

Maybe we are asking the wrong question. Maybe the question shouldn't be 'Why do we need this etiquette and formality in our training', but 'why don't we have this etiquette and formality in our daily lives'?

2 secrets to life: 1-Never tell anyone everything.

Frugal
(frugal@fysh.org)
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Old 02-01-2001, 10:16 AM   #108
Magma
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Interesting, Frugal...
my initial shoot-from-the-hip response is that our daily lives are governed by a different set of rules and etiquette than is our training. Not better or worse, just different. It is up to each of us how much respect we show in our daily lives. Do we hold the doors for other people? Let drivers merge into our lane? Are we polite? All of these things come down to respect - which is a little different than etiquette. The respect inside the dojo should be the same as without: though we practice a potentially devastating art in class, we know that that training may be called upon at any time in the real world. What changes in the dojo is just the etiquette, to show a mutual understanding with our training partners that we are putting ourselves into each others hands that we may better learn. It is because we need this trust that the special etiquette of class reinforces "this is different than the outside world"

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 09-16-2004, 11:54 PM   #109
auskodo
Dojo: aishikan zendo
Location: australia
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Re: Should we hang on to tradition?

Darin
If you think Bowing is "kissing butt" im afraid you need to do more of it, like any other aspect of your art only by putting your self aside and practicing will you come to an understanding. If you accept your student thanking you verbally then your problem would seem to be not with "kissing butt" but with how it done - specifically you want it on your terms only - conscequently you turn thanks into "kissing butt".
Theres nothing 'mystic' about bowing you just do it, express yourself body and mind understanding of yourself, make the connection Darin, your art will grow through it.
if you dont then I'm afraid bowing and all the other traditions including your techniques (which are not something seperate from Ritsu) will remain as dead to you as they are now.

Dean

Visit us sometime at Jizoan Zen centre, just ring the Hyogo centre in Perth you know where that is Darin.
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