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Old 09-10-2004, 08:26 AM   #1
kienergy1234
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how long does it take aikido to work

i take aikikai aikido,and i was wondering how long it takes to start working,because whenever i try to use aikido on my uncle or father they can resist out of it and i basically end up getting nowhere with them.
just a question,JOSH
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Old 09-10-2004, 08:59 AM   #2
DarkShodan
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

How long have you been taking Aikido?

Aikido always works, how long its takes for us to learn and use it depends on the individual.

Victims, aren't we all.
-- Eric Draven
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Old 09-10-2004, 09:00 AM   #3
akiy
 
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

How long is a piece of string?

-- Jun

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Old 09-10-2004, 09:04 AM   #4
Devon Natario
 
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Depends on what you're trying to do Josh. Honestly, anyone can resist any technique.

There are other principles that go along with using any martial art like Aiki-jujitsu, jujitsu, or aikido.

I suggest reading a little bit of Wally Jays 10 principles.

Ill tell you what I have learned.

Distraction- You need to make your adversary think you are going to hit them in the face, when in all actuality you are going for another technique (Nikyo). In Jujitsu we call it playing "chess".

Create a base- After you aplly the technique, creat a base. Some kind of base, any kind. Do an indian burn style Nikyo, pull his elbow towards you. Control your opponent.

Balance- Keep him as much off balance as possible, while maintaining your balance.

Feel your opponent. If you are trying to go for Nikyo and a person is pulling, let them pull, and go into another technique. We call this flowing. You flow from one technique to another if the person is resisting, or you can force them to move into your next technique. Often times I will grab someone in a finger lock, and switch it to Sankyo.When I want to change it, I let them try to spin into me, and I just help them spin further while holding their wrist and I go into Koto Gaeshi.

Anyways- there is more than that to learn.. Basically you need to practice and get the feel of it. It all depends on how your practice.

I have seen some people take years to learn it, and other half a year to learn it. Its funny too, because its like a light switch goes off in their head and then they "get it".

You can not determine the amount of time it takes for a person to learn. This is why no one has responded to you.

You just need to live techniques and practice them until they are second nature. That should be your only concern.

Devon Natario
Instructor
Northwest Jujitsu
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Old 09-10-2004, 09:52 AM   #5
AsimHanif
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Reminds me of the old commercial-
"How long does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop? Let's see, 1, 2, 3, ..", said the owl.
I guess there was a bit of Zen in there.
Now I'm dating myself.
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Old 09-10-2004, 09:58 AM   #6
Matt Molloy
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Quote:
Joshua Dalton wrote:
i take aikikai aikido,and i was wondering how long it takes to start working
Usually less than a second. Apply Nikyo and....splat! Uke hits the floor. Yup. That appears to be working.

Seriously, after a while, you start to see that if they resist one technique, they leave themselves open to another. Till then, just practice the basics and drill them in.

Trust me it works. We're not all in it for the "new age dancing."

Stay cool.

Matt.
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Old 09-10-2004, 10:01 AM   #7
kironin
 
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Quote:
Joshua Dalton wrote:
i try to use aikido on
techniques don't exist in a vacuum without communication

until you are able to recognize the form of the ki your opponent presents you with you won't recognize the technique he is asking you to do or the direction he is telling you to take him.

typically in the family situation you describe, the ki of your opponent does not contain any real attack. He is simply asking you to do the technique of no-technique. You could stand there all day unharmed. It's a classic game of I won't let you DO anything to me otherwise known as sandbagging. They are not interested in attacking you so much as escaping.

If you can't simply stand there unharmed then see what I said above.

keep in mind they don't know how to fall safely and you are not on a mat so someone could get injured if egos get out of hand. Generally this show me what you can do business is not a good idea. It would better when someone asks you to show them, to say no. Tell them that they should come try a class or come watch a class and get their questions answered there.

keep training.

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Old 09-10-2004, 10:08 AM   #8
kironin
 
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
Usually less than a second. Apply Nikyo and....splat! Uke hits the floor. Yup. That appears to be working.
nice way to feed you ego but doing this to someone outside the dojo is really very immature.

again, invite them to the dojo to watch a class, ask questions there etc.

don't give in to you own insecurities or it could result in a trip to the doctor.

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Old 09-10-2004, 11:10 AM   #9
Matt Molloy
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
nice way to feed you ego but doing this to someone outside the dojo is really very immature.

again, invite them to the dojo to watch a class, ask questions there etc.

don't give in to you own insecurities or it could result in a trip to the doctor.
Perhaps you misunderstood the humour in the post. Perhaps it's my fault, I should have included smilies or whatever.

My reply was purely on "How long does it take for Aikido to work."

Try humour, it works.

Aikido is one of the martial arts where you can demonstrate, within limits, to an aggravating relative of the "show me what you can do" type, what it is that you do.

Nothing to do with insecurities of any kind.

The second part of my post is basically, "keep training and it will come."

Anybody who disputes this advice around here?

I think that all beginners have the same doubts when the moves shown on the mat don't work for them, especially if they have done any "works straight out of the box" martial arts before. (Come on, the threads are full of "does aikido work?")

Just trying to assuage them.

All the best.

Matt.
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Old 09-10-2004, 12:48 PM   #10
kironin
 
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Quote:
Matt Molloy wrote:
Perhaps you misunderstood the humour in the post. Perhaps it's my fault, I should have included smilies or whatever.
I get that it was humor.

immature humor.


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Old 09-10-2004, 02:28 PM   #11
Don_Modesto
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
How long is a piece of string?
At least 5280 feet.

(Judging by the MILEage this retort is logging...

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 09-10-2004, 05:25 PM   #12
mj
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
nice way to feed you ego but doing this to someone outside the dojo is really very immature.

again, invite them to the dojo to watch a class, ask questions there etc.

don't give in to you own insecurities or it could result in a trip to the doctor.
What a way to talk to people.

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Old 09-10-2004, 05:50 PM   #13
disabledaccount
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Someone asked my teacher to demonstrate some aikido at a party. He said, without a hint of a smile, "It's very painful, you won't like it.". Of course that was the end of it.

He later explained to me that it's better to back out of an impromptu demonstration on an untrained person, and risk losing face, then to give everyone at the party the wrong idea about what aikido is. Most of the time the person is really issuing a veiled challenge of some sort when they request to "see it". Some people will think it's fighting, some people will think "that wouldn't work on me", some people will think it's too aggressive, but nobody will really get what it is that you are doing.

Pointing out that receiving aikido techniques can be painful will turn most would be challengers away. Those who are really serious are invited to class.
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Old 09-10-2004, 07:29 PM   #14
MaryKaye
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

My teachers recommend, if someone asks to see what you do, teach them "unbendable arm" or "unliftable stance." Pretty cool stuff, and no one gets hurt. It is particularly helpful if *you* end up asking *them* to do the move rather than vice versa, because then they are using their efforts to show that aikido works rather than to show that it doesn't work.

I also like kokyu dosa, again asking them to throw me more than vice versa. Since you're on the floor already it's harder to get hurt.

As to "how long till my techniques can succeed against resistance?" it's better to explore this in the dojo with a similarly ranked partner--bearing in mind that when you try to resist and fail, the ukemi generally gets harder.

I was quite pleased to find out recently that one of my throws was solid enough to work on an uncooperative senior person. I got a lot of bruises finding out that most of the other throws weren't up to that level yet. Wouldn't want to do it every day, but it was a good learning experience. This is after about a year and a half of steady practice, but some people certainly learn faster than me.

Mary Kaye
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Old 09-10-2004, 08:52 PM   #15
kironin
 
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Quote:
Bodhi Richards wrote:
He later explained to me that it's better to back out of an impromptu demonstration on an untrained person, and risk losing face, then to give everyone at the party the wrong idea about what aikido is. Most of the time the person is really issuing a veiled challenge of some sort when they request to "see it". Some people will think it's fighting, some people will think "that wouldn't work on me", some people will think it's too aggressive, but nobody will really get what it is that you are doing.

Pointing out that receiving aikido techniques can be painful will turn most would be challengers away. Those who are really serious are invited to class.

bingo! nicely put.


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Old 09-10-2004, 08:53 PM   #16
kironin
 
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Quote:
mark johnston wrote:
What a way to talk to people.
yes it is.

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Old 09-10-2004, 09:08 PM   #17
xuzen
 
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Quote:
Joshua Dalton wrote:
i take aikikai aikido,and i was wondering how long it takes to start working,JOSH
The above is always a relative question...

If you are to perform aikido on a 5 year old skinny little girl, then I say immediately.

If you are to perform aikido on your neighbourhood bar bouncer named Bubba, then maybe many years of training...

If Bubba also learn aikido or some MA to counter then you need many more years...

If you learn more MA to counter Bubba, then not so many years..

if Bubba... yackity yak yak yak...

You get the picture by now. Sigh.

Josh, how long can you live? That's how long it's gonna take.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 09-10-2004, 10:19 PM   #18
AsimHanif
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Quote:
If you are to perform aikido on a 5 year old skinny little girl, then I say immediately.
I have seen many a black belts befuddled when trying to demonstrate a technique on a skinny flexible 5 year old or the like.

Also MaryKaye, with all due respect you may be right but in all honesty the first time I came to VKS and had someone show me Ki tests I was like "and what does this have to do with self defense?"
Now when I was shown nikkyo, "aahhh nice."
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Old 09-10-2004, 11:53 PM   #19
kienergy1234
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

ive been taking aikikai aikido for 3 months
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Old 09-11-2004, 04:06 AM   #20
Matt Molloy
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
I get that it was humor.

immature humor.

Be careful, your ego is showing.

I realise that I should have lectured on the ki of my opponent blah blah... That always makes sense to a beginner.

Quote:
AsimHanif wrote:
Also MaryKaye, with all due respect you may be right but in all honesty the first time I came to VKS and had someone show me Ki tests I was like "and what does this have to do with self defense?"
Now when I was shown nikkyo, "aahhh nice."
This is more my point. What can I say? Some of us start out looking for a very martial art. As someone once said,

"Aikido. Putting the "Harm" back into "Harmony.""

I'm not knocking Ki Aikido here in the slightest by the way.

All the best.

Matt.
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Old 09-11-2004, 07:10 AM   #21
Jorge Garcia
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

I'm not sure that the real issue here is "when will aikido techniques will work on our relatives" but the issue is what will happen if we show techniques to our relatives that work great on them? I think that when Aikido really does start "working" for you, you will stop trying it outside the dojo because you will understand better the dangers involved in doing that. I always tell my students never to do that because as Craig said, these are situations without real committed attacks. In the dojo, we give and receive the techniques and as the years go by, we understand the responsibly they carry. The other day, one of our students took a bad fall and was shaken somewhat. While he was recovering, I stopped the class and we talked about the fact that this kind of experience was a good one in that it gives you insight into the nature and power present when a technique is applied and things don't go right during ukemi. I told the class that these are the experiences that your brother and uncle won't have in their memory bank after you show them an aikido technique and they are liable to go out there and do a technique to someone that could seriously injure someone or in a worse case scenario, even kill them. The better a technique works, the more likely that they will want to try it out on someone else and that's not good. It's the commitment of being in a dojo, training year after year and receiving as well as doing the techniques that gives you the right to know them.
The "vacuum" that was spoken of earlier is created when a person learns techniques outside of that context.
Best

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 09-11-2004, 12:21 PM   #22
Aikidoiain
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Hi Josh,

A better question would be - What do I want from Aikido?

If you can ask yourself that question then you'll know what you're looking for from it.

Iain.
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Old 09-11-2004, 04:34 PM   #23
dan guthrie
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

I started to think my Aikido worked when nage's technique worked on me. If I gave my best ukemi - not that I really know what that is yet - from time to time I'd feel the effect on me.

(Am I saying this correctly?)
I'll try another way; once I got past my own nervousness and bad coordination and I gave my most honest effort to striking/holding nage, I would fall down and not really know how I got there. Except I did.


I still talk about the time my partner made me fall but it felt as if something was sucking me down. It probably happens all the time, I just noticed it this one time.
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Old 09-11-2004, 07:37 PM   #24
kironin
 
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

Quote:
Asim Hanif wrote:
Also MaryKaye, with all due respect you may be right but in all honesty the first time I came to VKS and had someone show me Ki tests I was like "and what does this have to do with self defense?"
Now when I was shown nikkyo, "aahhh nice."

The really nice thing about ki tests in demonstrations is it allows you to get the audience fully involved in the demo with zero risk. I just did a public demonstration last weekend where after the initial introduction about aikido and some demo of basic attacks and techniques with one of my students, I was then able to get the audience to stand up and go through a few basic exercises like unbendable arm and standing while maintaining one-point to get across ideas like living relaxation and positive extension. They go through the exercises trying to use tension and then relaxation and compare the differences with the person next to them while my students wander around helping them to get the idea of what I am talking about and demonstrating. As usual this got a very enthusiatic response and seemed to help them to better appreciate what I was doing when demonstrating technique.
I then proceed straight from the ki test forms into answering the question about, what does this have to do with self-defense ?
which blends into how we train in class, that we do teach people how to fall safely before the big throws and then they see the students training (like to have all ranks out there), and finally a full out randori with all my senior students coming after me hard for a dynamic finish.

always goes over well as a demo with the citizens police academy too.

seems to generate lots of good questions and interest.

Last edited by kironin : 09-11-2004 at 07:40 PM.

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Old 09-13-2004, 10:46 AM   #25
aikidocapecod
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Re: how long does it take aikido to work

when one stops trying to make it work.........that is when it works.....
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