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Old 03-27-2001, 11:05 AM   #26
Chris P.
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Quote:
The One wrote:
About Wing Chun... How closely related is it to Aikido? It isn't very popular is it? Wouldn't it be hard to find a wing chun school? At least on east side US, where I live.
Wing Chun is quite popular in the US, actually. Principles of centerline usage, posture, and mitigation of the opponent's strength through body positioning, are common to WC and Aikido. WC players are generally more concerned with protecting themselves and less concerned with protecting the attacker, then most Aikido people.
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Old 03-28-2001, 08:12 AM   #27
The One
Dojo: The Universe
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Basics

Question: If any of you Aikidoka can remember or anyone just starting, what did you learn on your first day in your Aikido class? What did your sensei tell you about Aikido and what concepts did you learn first?

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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Old 03-28-2001, 08:16 AM   #28
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
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Re: Basics

Quote:
The One wrote:
what did you learn on your first day in your Aikido class?
I learned to roll forward, and that if I didn't turn my head when I rolled back I was probably going to hurt my neck.
My first Sensei never talked too much about what Aikido "is," assumedly because just practicing tells you far more about it than talking.
andrew
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Old 03-28-2001, 08:21 AM   #29
Mike Collins
Location: San Jose
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The concept of extension- the "unbendable arm"

Seated forward roll- took me several years to get that one.

Standing forward roll- got it basically right away.

Standing sit fall.

Etiquette for bowing in and out of the dojo, bowing on and off the mat, bowing to a partner.

What I didn't ever get told is what to call my teacher. I struggled with that for a year or so, till I relaxed into "Sensei", though I still call him by his given name sometimes.

Rules can be a pain in the butt, but it is nice to know what is polite right away.
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Old 03-28-2001, 08:22 AM   #30
The One
Dojo: The Universe
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So he never talked about keeping your center and how to be a good uke? Did he say anything about Irimi and Tenkan on the first day?

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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Old 03-28-2001, 09:07 AM   #31
Mike Collins
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Nope. My first lesson was about how to get on the mat, where I could begin to learn. My safety was important, as was my ability to be polite. There is only so much one can absorb the first day (after how to tie the obi, and which way the jacket laps.
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Old 03-28-2001, 09:56 PM   #32
Irony
Dojo: Aikido Center of Atlanta
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Mixed Styles

Hi,

I've never trained in any other MA other than Aikido, and only that for about eight months, so it may be that I only have a narrow frame of reference regarding other styles. The main question that pops up to me about mixed styles is "if punches and kicks were vital to self defense/ Aikido, why did the founder leave them out, except for atemi purposes?" I'm not saying that the founder was infallible, but with all his martial arts training he had a full range of attacks to chose from when building his art. Why did he leave them out? (before anyone makes a point about atemi I mean attacks that were techniques of themselves, not just distractions etc.)

I think it might have to do with the philosophy of Aikido. A punch or a kick is designed to injure, more so than any throw or pin (for the most part). The whole purpose in Aikido is defense, not attack. It seems that there are those who take the techniques of Aikido and use them without any sense of the morality instilled behind them. As I said before, I've never studied other arts, but what seems to make Aikido unique is that while the morality is there (as it is with some other MAs) it is one of the few that enforces it by the techniques themselves. A properly done kotegaeshi shouldn't seriously injure uke. If so you're doing the technique wrong. But mixed arts seem to say "wow, look at that wrist throw thingie! That looks really effective!" and assimilate it, not taking into account the philosophy behind it. I apologize in advance, because I'm going to quote Jurassic Park here: "They were so wrapped up in whether or not they could they never stopped to think if they should!"

Perhaps I'm totally wrong, and maybe my argument is totally muddled, but that's how it seems to me. That's the same argument I have against cross-training by the way. I have nothing personally against mixed styles (if you do them, have fun and more power to you), and I know that Aikido too, is a mix of styles. But Aikido was put together with a purpose in mind. I'd just be wary of styles that borrow techniques from Aikido simply because kotegaeshi can break a wrist just as easily as throw a person.

Ah well. Sorry about the length of the post; I'm an English major and tend to run on at the keyboard. Feel free to totally blast me, that's cool.

later,


Chris Pasley
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Old 03-29-2001, 04:29 AM   #33
George S. Ledyard
 
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Dojo: Aikido Eastside
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Eclectic Style?

Quote:
The One wrote:
I recently started taking lessons in a style called "Aki-Jitsu". It is an ecclectic of many systems and styles of martial arts including aikido, judo, karate, wing chun, and tai chi.

What I would like to ask is, what do you guys think of a school that teaches a form of aikido combined with the kicks and strikes and different concepts from karate and wing chun?
Why not? Sounds like it is very practically oriented. Unless you are specifically trying to get to the heart of what O-sensei's Aikido was about, in which case a more traditional style would serve you better, there's no reason this couldn't be a good style of training.
Quote:

Would you consider them non aiki? How effective or traditional would you think the aikido in this form would be?
It may be very effective if the originator of the style was very experienced. It is not traditional, but do you care? I will say that in my experience the people who often have run out on their own and created very eclectic styles of Aiki based arts generally aren't very sophisticated in their Aiki. Aikido people spend the majority of their time investigating the most minute details of movements that are designed to effect the center of a partner / opponent. Usually the people who have gone off and started eclectic styles like this don't have the background or understanding of the Aikido part of their training to be really high level. This is not to say that what they do is not valuable or effective. I did a style of Escrima for a while that was a combination of Filipino Escrima and Aikido. It was very effective, quite devastating in fact. The teacher under whom I studied was one of the most senior practitioners of the style. His understanding of the details of the locks that they applied was not as sophisticated as mine. Which made not one iota of difference as the style was very powerful and his ability to apply the locks in the context of their training which was with sticks was superior to mine. So this style wasn't traditional Aikido nor was it traditional Escrima. But it was a great style because the Founder of the style was very advanced and could really do what he was teaching.

So the value of what you are doing is: a) up to you; do you like it? and b) based on the depth of knowledge of the Founder of the style and the experience level of your particular teacher. The latter may be difficult for you to assess as a beginner since everybody looks good when you are new. So that is where a traditional style originated by a generally recognized teacher may be important. At least you have some idea of the credentials of your teacher. For instance I do Aikido which was originated by Morihei Ueshiba, generally considered to be a great martial artist. I learned my Aikido primarily from Mitsugi Saotome Sensei who was a direct student of the Founder for many years so I can rest assured that I a received the best training possible. My students can be reassured from my own association with Saotome sensei that they aren't being taught by some charlatan. When you have someone who goes off on his own and creates some new style, you lose that security of knowing what you are getting. Sometimes they are lying about their backgrounds. Other times the reason they started their own style was that they were thrown out by their teacher. Once you are in a non-traditional system you have a very hard time knowing.

History usually takes care of these things. O-Sensei took off on his own and created a new martial art that was very different from what he had studied. Initially he had to do some fighting in order to gain credibility for the art. Over time he became generally accepted and Aikido became an art that now has its own tradition that is widely accepted and recognized. That could happen to the style of training in which you are participating if it is really good or the style will disappear if it isn't, time will tell.

In the case of a non-traditional style you can make the best judgement by looking at the experience of the teacher (as stated by him or her) and judging if it seems reasonable. Thirty year olds are not 8th Dans in any reputable arts, there is no way a guy in his twenties has advanced black belts in four or five arts, etc.

You are best off if the teacher has trained with people whose names you can recognize ie. Dan Inosanto of Jeet Kun Do, the Machados or the Gracies of Jiu Jutsu, an Aikido teacher that appears in Stan Pranin's Aikido Encyclopedia, or some such. This is valuable because you can then verify whether the teacher is telling the truth about his background. The Jeet Kun Do folks post their registered instructors on the net. Every major Aikido organization will tell you if a teacher is certified by them. Do some research... If you find that you can't substantiate the claims of the person with whom you are considering training I would bolt. He is almost certainly not really advanced in what he claims to teach.

There are a large number of so-called eclectic styles that are taught by people who have no depth or essential background in any of the arts they profess to be teaching. So "caveat emptor".

[Edited by George S. Ledyard on March 29, 2001 at 04:58am]

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 03-29-2001, 06:24 AM   #34
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
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Re: Mixed Styles

Quote:
Irony wrote:
I'd just be wary of styles that borrow techniques from Aikido simply because kotegaeshi can break a wrist just as easily as throw a person.
I really like that point a lot, but you should be careful about describing the aims of Aikido in terms of attack and defence, because you can't. Every response to an attack you call defence can equally be described as attacking an opening your opponent has created.

The reason why there's not a lot of straightforward kicks and punches taught is more likely connected to O Senseis desire to distill things down to their root principles rather than a notion of leaving certain things out. In the start of the "Budo" training manual he says something about this, how each prinicple he teaches is the root of ten thousand techniques. I imagine that's a ballpark figure rather than precise, mind.
Bear in mind also that as you progress you'll find yourself concentrating entirely on your opponents centre, not on his limbs, even when you're manipulating those limbs.

I _think_.

Andrew
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Old 03-29-2001, 08:32 AM   #35
The One
Dojo: The Universe
Location: USA
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Ki Symbol

I still don't know my sensei's rank or past experience but I won't forget to ask next time. Anyway we did a sort of randori last class. And he said that he did some research and discovered and told to the class that Master Ueshiba(sp?) took Aiki-Jutsu before he developed Aikido. Yes, I already knew this but now I'm wondering why he had to research it.

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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Old 03-29-2001, 08:43 PM   #36
mornmd
Dojo: Nihon Goshin Aikijitsu
Location: New York
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Red face Aikido and Aiki Jutsu

Much of Aikido is a distillation of Daito Ryu aiki jujutsu, an older complex art. Several Daito Ryu sites list over 2000 techniques to master before completing training. Nihon Goshin Aikido, an art formed by Shodo Morita (a contemporary of Ueshiba) is heavily based on aikijutsu/daito ryu. and has been talked about on a different thread on this forum. When you watch the techniques they tend to have more of an economy of movement than Ueshiba's-aikido. Blending is quick, smaller circles, the techniques end quickly too, but beautiful in their efficiency. The style is harder than aikikai as well.

If I ever have time, I would love to explore authentic daito-ryu aikijutsu further.

Matthew
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Old 03-30-2001, 08:24 AM   #37
The One
Dojo: The Universe
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Red face "Aki-Jitsu"

Thank you Matthew, but as you can see what you have just stated has already been posted on this thread and I have known that for quite a long time. You should also notice that the style being discussed is Aki-Jitsu and not Aiki-Jutsu

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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Old 03-30-2001, 09:49 AM   #38
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
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Re: Aikido and Aiki Jutsu

Quote:
mornmd wrote:
Much of Aikido is a distillation of Daito Ryu aiki jujutsu, an older complex art. Several Daito Ryu sites list over 2000 techniques to master before completing training. Nihon Goshin Aikido, an art formed by Shodo Morita (a contemporary of Ueshiba) is heavily based on aikijutsu/daito ryu. and has been talked about on a different thread on this forum. When you watch the techniques they tend to have more of an economy of movement than Ueshiba's-aikido. Blending is quick, smaller circles, the techniques end quickly too, but beautiful in their efficiency. The style is harder than aikikai as well.

If I ever have time, I would love to explore authentic daito-ryu aikijutsu further.

Matthew
Only 2000?
Ha!
"B: How many techniques are there in Aikido?

O Sensei: There are about 3,000 basic techniques, and each one of them has 16 variations . . . so there are many thousands. Depending on the situation, you create new ones."

Who have you watched who had greater economy of movement than Ueshiba?

I used to be a bit interested in Daito Ryu too, but there's plenty Aikido I'll never have enough time to learn and now I'm happy to just chase after that.

andrew
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Old 03-30-2001, 10:22 AM   #39
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
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aikijitsu (sic)

[quote]The One wrote:
>[b]I recently started taking lessons
>in a style called "Aki-Jitsu". It is
>an ecclectic of many systems and
>styles of martial arts including
>aikido, judo, karate, wing chun, and
>tai chi.

Hmm. Then ... it is not aikijutsu or aikijujutsu. Not sure what it IS, but it's neither of those. Of course, the teacher can call the subject matter anything he or she cares to, but an amalgam like that is probably not gonna resemble anything a koryu jujutsu student or teacher would recognize.

Aikijujutsu, which is really just jujutsu (Ueshiba started calling his Daito Ryu jujutsu 'aiki' jujutsu at the urging of Onisaburo and with Takeda's possibly somewhat tacit blessing.

"Aiki" as a term in Japanese budo has been around a long, long time and has been attached to arts such as Kito Ryu jujutsu and Takenouchi Ryu jujutsu, among others.

>Would you consider them non aiki? How

Depends. Define aiki, first. I tend to cleave toward tohe older definitions, but it's a real fuzzy term and is open to wide interpretation.

>effective or traditional would you
>think the aikido in this form would

Effective? Who knows. I really don't care. I'm not much interested in what most folks think of as 'effective.' That's strictly something you and your needs will determine.

Traditional? Nope. Probably not a'tall.

Traditionally-flavored? Maybe. The things I study and teach are pretty eclectic, but are all japanese at the root and are the product of many years' distillation by my teachers.

My teacher did some modern jujutsu, some koryu jujutsu, some aikido and judo and some karate. He taught what he taught and we trained. The end product is pretty cohesive and has a strong koryu flavor, but it is NOT koryu, nor is it a ryuha in the strictest sense.

What I do is MY budo. And I am unaffiliated and stubbornly independant. I do also, however, study Eishin Ryu iaido and SMR jodo and train with koryu and gendai folks at every opportunity.

Who is your teacher? What did he or she study? From whom did your teacher gain authority to blend styles and why is it called aikijitsu? Just curious, not challenging.

Chuck Gordon
http://www.the-dojo.com/

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Old 04-01-2001, 01:50 PM   #40
mornmd
Dojo: Nihon Goshin Aikijitsu
Location: New York
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Wink "Aki"

If anyone knows the true definition of "Aki" as opposed to "aiki" I'd love to hear it. Couldn't find aki on the vocabulary lists on Aikiweb. "Aiki" is, of course readily found.

Oh, and I wasn't aware that O-Sensei had 3000 official techniques in Aikido with 16 variations each. If someone has a reference for that, please let me know.

M
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Old 04-01-2001, 03:41 PM   #41
The One
Dojo: The Universe
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O-Sensei himself says it in an interview. You can find it somewhere on http://www.aikidofaq.com

Sorry I don't know exactly where it is.

Yeah, I would also like to know if "Aki" is even a word. Anyway, another question, what, if any at all, is the difference between "Jutsu" and "Jitsu". Don't they both mean the "science" or "study" of?

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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