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Old 09-01-2004, 08:20 PM   #26
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
A pepper spray cost RM 30.00 (approx USD 4.30) in my country. Guns are illegal here, so are tazer and its equivalent. My point is with USD 4.30 and minimal training (you don't have to train for decades and obtain black belt to utilise it efficiently) you can sucessfully neutralize more proficient MArtist of any style. So why train in "insert style of MA here"?
Because it's fun.
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Old 09-01-2004, 09:08 PM   #27
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Quote:
daniel vanhee wrote:
Drew, no offense but come on man!!!, maybe thats true with concealed carry permits for the few;(leo's,feds,bh's and some security,and/or those with permission). You can not make the correlation(assumption) that few people carry arms and so aikido will solve all. It will not, did you read Dave O's post in this thread? You know it is true that the gun laws of the US are a joke(most crime packed areas=inner cities,have the strictist laws). I just hope that you would rethink your assumption that not may carry arms on their persons. How could you possibly know this? You can't assume and you know why. Thank you.
Actually Daniel; I support Drew's position. You're absolutely right; there's no way of knowing ahead of time whether or not someone's packing; but that's a separate issue. Drew is saying that in the vast majority of 'scuffle'-type encounters; people aren't going to haul out the artillery and begin blasting.
Now; it's true that in many areas that happens - in inner-city detroit or Scarborough for instance - but even so; while we read about them every day in the paper; and you as a cop likely deal with WRI's frequently; punches and shoves in a scuffle are far more frequent - by several orders of magnitude - than gunfire. In the vast majority of cases; aikido is enough to deal with a situation. (If, as I detailed, the person using it is capable of doing so in a defensive environment.)
Now keeping in mind you're also quite correct in saying you can't know if a person's armed (see above); this reinforces the simple fact that avoidance of conflict is far and away the best policy.
The caveat is that in this instance; we're talking about 'scuffle' encounters as Drew described. Far more dangerous is the violent assault and there; all bets are off. My point in this is that in that case; aikido is still overall your best, most immediate tool; 'cause 99.9% of the time such an attack will take place from the blindside; giving you no chance at all to ready a weapon.

Cheers!

Last edited by DaveO : 09-01-2004 at 09:11 PM.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 09-01-2004, 09:16 PM   #28
p00kiethebear
 
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Quote:
Has anyone had this problem?
Never had that problem because the first we learn in my dojo is to dodge bullets. I can't believe no one else here practices this.

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 09-01-2004, 10:57 PM   #29
xuzen
 
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Quote:
Nathan Gidney wrote:
Never had that problem because the first we learn in my dojo is to dodge bullets. I can't believe no one else here practices this.
Yes we do that here as well plus we also learn how to run so fast we becomes invisible to the naked eyes. Not to mention we are able to stealthly blend into the surrounding just like those super ninja fellas. Oops damm those anime movies, I am getting confused.


Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 09-02-2004, 12:24 AM   #30
Disciples
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

I take Seidokan Aikido...which I guess is supposed to be the type that is more harmonized and what not. I guess that doesn't matter, but in my opinion of a 16 year old in high school...it helps tremdously. People want to fight all the time over petty things, and in my eyes, real men use one valuable aspect in Aikido all the time: Using their words other than their fists. But for those who want to get physical with me and words don't seem to work, then I may perform on of the moves I've learned the night before or what have you. It helps neutralizing very high profile violent cases in school when people try to stab at you with pencils or come rushing at you like an idiot head first. In my eyes, using their own agression against them is the best way to apply any aikido move, simply because their embarrassment of being taken down so simply and being forced to look like an ass is the best way to stop anything. In school that is.
As for in the street...its completely different. Guns and knives come into play other than pencils and other school utensils. I've so far learned to neutralize someone if I also happen to have a bokken (my savior) with me....which I do for the most part. But when I'm without it and somebody decides to shoot at me, I can do one of 2 things: 1. Get off the line and move as quickly as I can around the person with the gun at a close range in order to throw off their aim and reduce chances of me getting hit. Or 2. Get hit and die. I'd rather go with choice one, because dying just won't do. I want to get better in aikido first.

This may be a little off topic but this has been brought to my attention by one of my peers. Aikido is one of the deadliest MAs out there. Seeing as though I almost broke my own arm trying to move from a pin I could see how, for most people who don't know how to act when pinned do the same thing. And when throwing someone or flipping someone, if they don't know how to fall....they'd pretty much break something. Especially with the move where you place your thumb between their pinky and ring finger nuckles and wrap your other fingers around the blade of their hand and just cut down. I think it is called Kotegash or something. Anyways, its effective and just playing around with friends I think I accidently slammed one of them into the ground and he couldn't move for 5 minutes. He's fine now, except he doesn't want to "play fight" with me anymore.
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Old 09-02-2004, 05:11 AM   #31
Iwan F. Kurniawan
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Quote:
Matthew Green wrote:
I think many are afraid that people will think "then why bother!".
yes, why bother?
i will immediately leave learning aikido if someday i think aikido will always keep me save from anything evil ...

aikido is extremly damn great ... , but doesn't mean that aikido is the best. many best martial arts in this universe but only few "knights" of those could be found. and, "knights" are just also flash and blood who could not hide from death or so ...

just practise, observe oftenly, and let's us make aikido one of the good thing we do for our life.

onegaisimasu!
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Old 09-02-2004, 06:07 AM   #32
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Well, we have to put the time in somehow, why not do something constructive like aikido?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 09-02-2004, 09:31 AM   #33
markwalsh
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Glad I (usually) live here in Western Europe where are guns are rarer. Even If they weren't, I still think I'd do Aikido.

Semi relevant true story:
Once when I was buying pizza in the States, the guy at the counter said, "I hear you guys don't have freedom in Britain.", and proceeded to show me his hand gun. Lunch was successful exchanged, bullets and opinions were not.

Mark
x
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Old 09-02-2004, 09:34 AM   #34
Nick Simpson
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Theres some strange people about...

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:58 AM   #35
billybob
 
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Quote:
I remember reading in one of John Seven sensei's books about how O-Sensei dodged a bullet point blank in one of his Aiki gardens. I think that depending on the situation, if us Aikidoka focus hard enough, and train hard enough, we too can reach that level. "Make the enemies arrogance your weapon." A samurai once said.
i like the post above. train. train hard. train for perfection. love your enemy, and seek to do no harm.
i also carry a 15 shot nine mil everywhere it is legal for me to do so and i will trade some *(*&bag's life to save my wife's every time. reconciling the contradiction is between me and god.

billybob
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Old 09-02-2004, 12:53 PM   #36
tedehara
 
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

One of the first non-Japanese instructors was Yukiso Yamamoto. He was born in Hiroshima and move to Hawaii. At age 49, he was a professional Judo instructor at 6th Dan. After meeting Koichi Tohei, he switched to Aikido and eventually earned a 6th Dan in Aikido.

I was reading Diary of the Way (pg 29) that had a section on him. Here is what I found relevant to this thread.
Quote:
I do not practice Aikido for self-defense reasons. I do not think any serious students practice this art for self-defense. The movements are simply a way to visually demonstrate the Aikido principles. These principles of nondissension and avoiding conflicts can be applied to our everyday life. This is the purpose of studying Aikido. If you have love in hour heart for all creation, the universe itself is your protector. There is no self-defense for those with ill intentions.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 09-02-2004, 01:44 PM   #37
mgreen
 
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
One of the first non-Japanese instructors was Yukiso Yamamoto. He was born in Hiroshima and move to Hawaii. At age 49, he was a professional Judo instructor at 6th Dan. After meeting Koichi Tohei, he switched to Aikido and eventually earned a 6th Dan in Aikido.

I was reading Diary of the Way (pg 29) that had a section on him. Here is what I found relevant to this thread.
Wow, what a great quote. My old boss used to carry a 1 shot Derringer in his pocket where ever he went. Probably the only thing I ever learned from him was to treat everyone like they got that little gun in there pocket. You never know. I didnt know he carried it untill 2 years of working there. There are a lot of poeple who say that around the time of the invention of the more concealable pistol, people were much more civilized towards one another. Just for this reason. Dont try and slap a women, or start a fight in a bar, because they just might have a Derringer,,,,,,,
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Old 09-03-2004, 04:40 PM   #38
david evans
Dojo: Newcastle Iwama Aikido
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Matthew

For my part, I am not training in Aikido so that I do not get shot.

Look to the real reason why your sensei would say this; it is perhaps intended to be more than the obvious.

Regards, David.

PS. Happy training!
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Old 09-03-2004, 11:12 PM   #39
Thomas Ambrose
 
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

In a way, Aikido can beat a gun. Learning to avoid conflict and gaining self-discipline and a respectful attitude can save your life a million times.

You are in a bar. You bump into some guy shooting pool, the guy is drunk, mad maybe packing heat. He shoves you and says "You mess up my shot, a--hole!" Being respectful and disciplined you say to him "I apologize, it was my mistake," and turn and leave, rather than engaging in an argumentative confrontation and "finding out" that he had a firearm. You escape the conflict without harm, you win.

I am somewhat new to Aikido, but from what I read in these forums, mixed with my own personal views and experiences, this is what I feel.

I feel somewhat obligated to post to this topic, because I am a hobbyist gun-owner (law-abiding, non-violent, and responsable).

Last edited by Thomas Ambrose : 09-03-2004 at 11:13 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 09-04-2004, 11:03 AM   #40
vanstretch
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

That would be ideal if that scenario played out nightly in American bars with no further incident nor escalation toward violence. Hell ,this planet would be healed in One second if everyone acted like that. But uh....yeah right.
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Old 09-07-2004, 12:06 PM   #41
jonreading
 
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

The morbid reality of things say that alot can happen to make you dead. My instructor, and my closest friends carry a weapon (handgun) with them. Many are law enforcement, some are not.
A previous comment mentioned that guns are not defensive weapons, and they are more difficult to work with than most people realize. This is completely true and I think many people don't understand the liability that guns present. But my instructor also explained that martial arts are more than combat, and develop senses and habits that are good to have for combat situations. From him, I have learned how to avoid difficult situations, avoid unwarranted fights, and avoid problems that could lead me into harm. A handgun can't teach me to avoid trouble; a handgun is an aid when I can't avoid trouble.
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Old 01-14-2007, 11:12 AM   #42
Ryan Sanford
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:

goodbye Earth,

thanks for all the fish
lmao... am I the only one who got that quote?
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Old 01-14-2007, 02:10 PM   #43
Roman Kremianski
Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

I think the fact that death can come for anyone at any moment is not a good enough excuse to "not bother". Get back on the mat!!

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 01-14-2007 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 01-14-2007, 03:46 PM   #44
Carlos Rivera
 
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Just train, be good to yourself and others and stop thinking so much.

Why bother with all these hypotethical issues? Aikido is not about what or who you can beat. I like what Seiser Sensei always says at the end of his posts "Now get back to training." That's what should be happening instead of all these "what if" situations.
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Old 01-14-2007, 05:49 PM   #45
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

I realise this is an old thread but,

Quote:
My Sensei was in the special forces in South East Asia during Vietnam. He is always very down to earth about how really, any dim wit can go to a firing range for a day, learn to shoot a 9mm, and blow your 8th Dan ass away. All that training down the drain. How many teachers out ther are honest enough to share this with their students? I think many are afraid that people will think "then why bother!". Has anyone had this problem? Interested in hearing back...
I feel a hell of a lot dumber for being curious about this thread and reading this first post.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 01-15-2007, 05:11 AM   #46
Mark Freeman
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Re: Gun beats rock, paper, Aikido

Quote:
Ryan Sanford wrote:
lmao... am I the only one who got that quote?
No

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