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Old 07-22-2004, 06:51 PM   #1
willy_lee
Dojo: City Aikido
Location: San Francisco, CA USA
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Tales of... Judoka, again, but reversed

Hey all,

After the recent hot thread about aikidoists sparring with judoists, I was wondering, did anyone have any stories to share about the reverse, that is, judoists coming in to spar with aikidoists, playing the aikidoists' game? I'm particularly curious about what the Shodokan/Tomiki people have experienced.

=wl

Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:34 PM   #2
Zato Ichi
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Re: Tales of... Judoka, again, but reversed

Quite a few of the older members of Shodokan honbu (including Nariyama Shihan himself) are experienced judoka and occasionally like to throw a little judo in when playing around (not actual randori). I saw a great demonstration once by a 6th dan... he caught uke with uchi-gari, then immediately went into shomenate! I have never seen anyone go flying like that

We occasionally have new students who come from a judo background and the main problem comes from toshu randori, which is baffling to most judoka: they try and close to grappling range without any taisabaki and inevitably get stabbed. Mind you, I still do this, so it's not just the beginners. Damn judo training .

OTOH most judoka do quite well with toshu randori, except for a natural instinct to latch onto the dogi. I'm absolutely horrible for this... I think every sensei here has called me on it. In any case here's a short story, which is not quite as embarressing as my post in the other thread: during toshu randori, I found myself (again) in a good position for a judo throw - koshi guruma. Being the simple creature I am, I started the technique, but, fortunately, caught myself before I went too far, and turned it into the ugliest ushiroate ever (my opponent went down but I almost fell on top of him). I glanced over to see if Shihan had noticed, and he shot me this amused grin which said, "I know what you were going to do."
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Old 07-23-2004, 12:50 AM   #3
PeterR
 
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Re: Tales of... Judoka, again, but reversed

Shodokan Honbu has senior Judoka join the dojo every now and then. I remember one pair in their late 40s when I was about ikkyu. A real study in contrasts - one was build like Swartzenegger on steroids while the other although built was more like a well muscled teddy bear. Both if I remember correctly were about 6th Dan. They spent a lot of time with me - mainly because I'm just a friendly and willing type. Teddy picked up on the difference of movement quite well, he really like the idea of the explosive tsukuri. The other well frankly was about as stiff as they come - but still they were a pleasure to train with. They were still there when I left for Canada.

I like training with Judoka.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-23-2004, 04:21 AM   #4
batemanb
 
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Re: Tales of... Judoka, again, but reversed

I'm second telling a tale told to me by an old Sensei of mine many years ago, he told me the story about 10 years ago, and it happened some time before that.

He was giving an Aikido demonstration at a leisure centre, at the end he asked if anyone in the audience would like to come on the mat and try it. One rather large chappie stood up, bowed onto the mat and came over to him. The guy made a double handed grab to the lapels and immediately turned and threw the sensei. The interesting point to the story was that the sensei did ukemi and came straight back to his feet, the visitor wasn't expecting this, as he threw the sensei, he followed straight down, only the sensei wasn't where he thought he was. the guy (it turns out after was a judoka) hit the floor and somehow managed to split his face. He was quite friendly about it all when he got up, and immediately joined the club.

Rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 07-23-2004, 10:49 AM   #5
otto
Dojo: Independent
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Re: Tales of... Judoka, again, but reversed

Now thats a demo!.

Did your sensei got surprised with that throw , or was him just setting the trap for the guy?

"Perfection is a Process"
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Old 07-23-2004, 12:45 PM   #6
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of... Judoka, again, but reversed

I am pretty sure if I went to my old Aikido dojo and sparred with the instructer, 4th Dan, I would certainly get tossed around pretty good, and maybe more than that if he was in a bad mood. But that certainly would not prove anything about the general effectiveness of Aikido against Judo given my experience.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 07-23-2004 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 07-25-2004, 09:22 PM   #7
willy_lee
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Re: Tales of... Judoka, again, but reversed

Quote:
R. Haruo Hori wrote:
We occasionally have new students who come from a judo background and the main problem comes from toshu randori, which is baffling to most judoka: they try and close to grappling range without any taisabaki and inevitably get stabbed.
I assume you meant to say tanto randori here?
Quote:
OTOH most judoka do quite well with toshu randori, except for a natural instinct to latch onto the dogi.
Seems like it would be quite a hard thing to overcome this reflex. And when doing toshu randori, do you tell someone latching on to stop, or do you deal with it? I assume when "playing" as you said, there's more leeway.

When I've played around with a judoka I found it very hard to get away once he had wrapped his fingers in my gi.

Has anyone ever tried randori with boxing gloves or something on the hands to prevent grabbing the gi? I'd like to try it someday.

Thanks for the interesting stories!

=wl

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Old 07-27-2004, 10:08 PM   #8
xuzen
 
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Re: Tales of... Judoka, again, but reversed

Dear friends,

Yesterday, during the usual class I asked my sensei how should an aikidoka react if he/her is being done a strangulation / choke hold by a judoka. So as usual my sensei says, "Go ahead, make my day punk"; sorry pun intended with the Clint Eastwood parody.

Anyway, I executed two well known judo shimewaza. The first one, was gyaku juji jime and the second one was sankaku jime. The first counter my sensei performed was a finger strike to my nerve point just below my armpit, the second one he pressed his thumb into the nerve point near my thigh; somewhere at the groin area. In both cases, I had to tap out because the pressure causes a paralyzing pain, some sort like the yonkajo/yonkyo pain. I guess when you spar with a non judo practitioner, the sporting rule of judo gets thrown out of the window. Sigh, so much to learn, so little time.

Boon

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Old 08-26-2004, 11:16 AM   #9
Zato Ichi
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Re: Tales of... Judoka, again, but reversed

Sorry to bring this one back from the dead, but I somehow managed to miss Willy's questions:

Quote:
Willy Lee wrote:
I assume you meant to say tanto randori here?
Uh... yeah. I think it's time to get that crayon removed from my brain.

Quote:
Willy Lee wrote:
Seems like it would be quite a hard thing to overcome this reflex. And when doing toshu randori, do you tell someone latching on to stop, or do you deal with it? I assume when "playing" as you said, there's more leeway.
I don't care, but some do. You definitely can't get away with it in a tournament - the judges will stop the match and give you a warning. The way I deal with it when I notice I'm grabbing the sleeve of the dogi is to shift my grip to the person's arm ASAP. At this point, I think I've trained my self enough not to grab the collar most of the time, although I have the occasional slip. I'm sure others have their own little tricks when they find their judo and aikido merging.

As for playing around, I just meant that neither person was actively engaged in a serious randori match, just trying out different techniques and combinations (what we would call kakari or hikitate geiko), usually between classes. It's always interesting to watch the univeristy students go flying around as men three times their age effortlessly hurl them across the mats - these are the guys who like to mix other arts in with aikido.
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Old 08-26-2004, 12:52 PM   #10
mj
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Re: Tales of... Judoka, again, but reversed

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Dear friends,

Yesterday, during the usual class I asked my sensei how should an aikidoka react if he/her is being done a strangulation / choke hold by a judoka. So as usual my sensei says, "Go ahead, make my day punk"; sorry pun intended with the Clint Eastwood parody.

Anyway, I executed two well known judo shimewaza. The first one, was gyaku juji jime and the second one was sankaku jime. The first counter my sensei performed was a finger strike to my nerve point just below my armpit, the second one he pressed his thumb into the nerve point near my thigh; somewhere at the groin area. In both cases, I had to tap out because the pressure causes a paralyzing pain, some sort like the yonkajo/yonkyo pain. I guess when you spar with a non judo practitioner, the sporting rule of judo gets thrown out of the window. Sigh, so much to learn, so little time.

Boon
Judoka rarely strangle/choke from the front (coz it is too dangerous). Neither would they probably use sankaku as a self defense move. Okuri-eri-jime (and all of its variations), hadaka-jime and tsuki-komi-jime. (Yeah the last one is from the front but it works)

And if a guy sticks his finger in me I'm gonna bite something off.

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Old 08-26-2004, 05:14 PM   #11
willy_lee
Dojo: City Aikido
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Re: Tales of... Judoka, again, but reversed

Quote:
R. Haruo Hori wrote:
As for playing around, I just meant that neither person was actively engaged in a serious randori match, just trying out different techniques and combinations (what we would call kakari or hikitate geiko), usually between classes. It's always interesting to watch the univeristy students go flying around as men three times their age effortlessly hurl them across the mats - these are the guys who like to mix other arts in with aikido.
I see -- thanks for the answers, sounds like fun!

=wl

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Old 08-26-2004, 05:31 PM   #12
willy_lee
Dojo: City Aikido
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Re: Tales of... Judoka, again, but reversed

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Anyway, I executed two well known judo shimewaza. The first one, was gyaku juji jime and the second one was sankaku jime. The first counter my sensei performed was a finger strike to my nerve point just below my armpit, the second one he pressed his thumb into the nerve point near my thigh; somewhere at the groin area. In both cases, I had to tap out because the pressure causes a paralyzing pain, some sort like the yonkajo/yonkyo pain. I guess when you spar with a non judo practitioner, the sporting rule of judo gets thrown out of the window.
Ellis Amdur has told a story, I think it was in an online forum, regarding effect of pressure points vs. chokes. Basically, he and a judo buddy had a little friendly challenge (I think he mentioned there was alcohol involved ) where he would let his buddy choke him and he would counter with pressure point attacks from his koryu practice. The first try, done in a friendly fashion, had the judo buddy flinching away and letting go immediately.

Then, because he was curious, Mr. Amdur had him try it again, except this time he made his friend really really mad first If I remember correctly, Mr. Amdur said that he hit his friend on the pressure point he was targeting as hard as he could, hard enough that there was a nice bruise there the next day to show that he had not missed the target. The next thing he remembered was his friend waking him up

The point I took away from his story was that pressure point counters are nice for demos but not to be depended on for real fights.

From another perspective, if it was the life of you or your family at stake, or otherwise really really important to you, would *you* give up because of the pain of these pressure point counters?

=wl

Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
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