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Old 08-19-2004, 03:29 PM   #26
suren
Dojo: Aikido of Silicon Valley
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Re: To resist or not to resist

I just got a private message from another aikiweb user pointing on this post http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...tner#post68046
But I think in this case there is no ego or showing off on uke's side. People just choose to train with different levels of resistance...
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Old 08-19-2004, 05:41 PM   #27
Aristeia
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Re: To resist or not to resist

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
This is interesting. Imho, if Uke attacks with a grab and is able to set his stance and "just freeze there" then your technique has already failed as you should be continuing his movement with well timed tai sabaki and kuzushi, never allowing him to set and freeze his posture.
True Dat

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-19-2004, 05:44 PM   #28
aikido_luver
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Re: To resist or not to resist

With resistance its hard to know how much but you also need to relax
You need to feel what your uke/nage is doing and you cant do that when your all stiff and tense.
I always seem to start off with minimum resistance with beginners or lower grades and then build it up and i do the same with higher grades...or sometimes i just go straight into resisting as much as possible with the black belts. (somedays i do and somedays i dont)
lol, but i think it is important to explore all ways of doing it...everybody is different in the way they attack.
For example, if i am training with one of my senseis i will resist but as soon as i get in the ground i stop resisting all of a sudden and dont really do anything, but a person i have trained with before is the oppisite, they are really loose and dont have much resistence untill they get on the ground and then they try to get up. Everyone has a different style you just have to feel what they are doing and try and work with what you have

well at least thats what one of my senseis tells me!!! lol,
I hope this helps, sorry if it doesn't!!!


Ayla
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Old 08-20-2004, 10:17 AM   #29
NagaBaba
 
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Re: To resist or not to resist

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Every time? Any level of student? Even if they are beginners and it's the first time they've seen the technique. Hell, even if they're expereienced and it's the first time they've seen the technique? Do I want to be wacking a 5th kyu in the back of the head everytime there's an opening in their technique or should I pick a couple of things to have him work on?
Your way may work but I expect it takes much longer and has a higher attrition rate.
Tori must learn right from the beginning that attacker is not a doll, that it takes a big efford to put somebody down.
Also he must learn, that not EVERY time uke falls down and if uke doesn't fall it is entierly fault of tori. It is very good habit to hit or to counter a technique every time uke see an opening. A strike doesn't need to be strong, light touch for beginners is enough. It must be clear sign that uke see opening. After few months stronger atemi must be delivered. A counter can be not neceserly a strike, go out of technique is good way too. It makes tori think what is wrong, and how to find a way to make control more efficient.

If opening are not signal by uke every time, tori learns bad habits(I.e. waiting for sensei's help instead of become creatif and find solution himself........), becomes pretecious, his ego growing extremly fast.

He forgets that he has only one chance to do a technique(in the context of life/dead situation) and becomes comfortable, feels safe(that's the worst thing!!!). His senses are not sharpened. He is not developing his eyes and a feeling of technique in right way.

And martial spirit of practice is completly lost.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 08-20-2004, 11:49 AM   #30
suren
Dojo: Aikido of Silicon Valley
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Re: To resist or not to resist

Interesting point. I did not think that showing tori's openings could be considered as resistance, but I realize now that it is... BTW, that methodology can be applied even while training in a "relaxed" way. Isn't it?
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Old 08-20-2004, 01:53 PM   #31
Aristeia
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Re: To resist or not to resist

yes it can but I still maintain it needs to employed at the appropriate level. If I'm showing up every hole in a 6th kyu's technique by giving him an atemi (tap) moving out of the technique, reversing it etc etc that 6th kyu will NEVER get to practice the form. It's a terrible way to teach lower levels. Or even upper levels with unfamiliar techniques. You show them the form. You get them to do as loose an approximation of it as they can manage and then refine it down. Polish the stone as it were. Have them work on one or two things at a time until good form is internalised enough to start taking the approach that Szczepan is advocating for everybody.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-20-2004, 03:23 PM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: To resist or not to resist

I kind of agree with alot of the different approaches here...but I'm also sure that everyone has worked with the uke from hell...you know, 1st kyu, brown belt (whatever) and is there to personally show you everything they've ever been taught. I'm not sure I've ever completed a technique with one of those...

In my experience, one instructor in the dojo is quite sufficient...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 08-20-2004, 07:14 PM   #33
suren
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Re: To resist or not to resist

Ron, you misinterpreted the situation. They don't try to teach you anything, but the way they practice is different. BTW, when I say high resistance that does not mean you are always injured during the practice (thought the probability is higher than when you pratice slowly and softly) - that means you are injured sometines I'm kidding...
Probably I can't explain that well... One works softly and slowly, concentrated on each move and flow of the movement. The other goes as an ocean wave - fast, powerful, with consistent pressure. They both do what sensei says, but with different speed and power.
I was wondering which way of training gives you more and from what I hear they all give you something to work with: soft way - to concentrate on the technique and learn it, hard way - to feel how it works, test yourself and sharpen it. At least that's my understanding, hope I got it right.
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Old 08-20-2004, 09:53 PM   #34
MaryKaye
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Re: To resist or not to resist

Speaking only for myself, there are moves (and Ki Society style seems particularly rich in them) that I just can't understand if I start out doing them against resistance. Until I've felt how the uninterrupted flow is supposed to go, I have no clue, and all I can produce against resistance is some high-effort forced thing that doesn't resemble the actual throw very much. If I learn to get the flow right, I can (sometimes!) then work out how to continue it when uke is resisting. So I value having training partners who are willing to give me a sincere attack and then follow my lead rather than fighting it.

I train with one person who is very fast, energetic, and somewhat hurried in all of his technique, uke and nage both. He's taught me a lot (not least, overcoming my fear of him!) but if I've just been shown a new technique I need to train with someone else. I don't think I would ever have gotten shomenuchi kokyunage right if it hadn't been for my usual same-rank partner patiently showing me, over and over, what lead I was giving him and where it seemed to be taking him. He could have stopped me cold at any moment he chose, but all that would have done was drive me crazy--I was already using too much force and not enough rhythm, and resistance would only have made that worse.

Mary Kaye
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Old 08-20-2004, 10:28 PM   #35
maikerus
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Re: To resist or not to resist

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:

Also he must learn, that not EVERY time uke falls down and if uke doesn't fall it is entierly fault of tori. It is very good habit to hit or to counter a technique every time uke see an opening.
I would suggest that this type of practice is valuable and does have its place, but I think that practicing this way *every time* and with *everyone* would be counter-productive to anyone's training. Personally, when I practice this way my partner and I agree on that this is the way we're going to practice.

I suspect that if one person decided to point out the others faults and the other person was just interested in remembering which foot goes where that the practice wouldn't be very interesting, martial or fun.


Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:

He forgets that he has only one chance to do a technique(in the context of life/dead situation) and becomes comfortable, feels safe(that's the worst thing!!!). His senses are not sharpened. He is not developing his eyes and a feeling of technique in right way.

And martial spirit of practice is completly lost.
I think that it is very important to remember that we are doing a martial art and to keep our focus in our training with that in mind. Aikido should not just be a social club or a way to sweat a little a couple of times a week.

Luckily, we are training so that we can learn from what we are doing and increase our ability, skill and stamina. We can't get any technique right away and trying to force that to happen by pointing out everything that we are doing wrong (by resisting or applying atemi when there is an opening) would not be the best way to do things.

An analogy that just came to me is learning to write. My son is 5 years old and we've been working on his letters and numbers. If I stopped every stroke he made to write the letter W or X or G when it wasn't perfectly straight or at the exact angle he would never finish a single letter.

I maintain that training comes in many forms. There are times to work on the overall technique, times to break it down into core components, times to focus on balance, times to focus on timing and times to put it all together into a whole greater than the sum of its parts.

The difference between renshu and keiko also works into this whole idea.

My few yen,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 08-20-2004, 11:45 PM   #36
DCP
 
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Re: To resist or not to resist

I find the best way to be uke is to act in the same manner as I had acted when I was uke for Sensei's initial demonstration. Give a committed attack not knowing what technique is to come. ( I am also fortunate enough to have a Sensei that will deliver atemi as necessary. Nothing too rough, just friendly reminders!).

Almost anybody can resist a technique that they know is coming.

I think a cool way to train (occasionally) would be to have a session devoted to a particular attack and let nage choose different techniques each repetition. Obviously this couldn't include beginners, but it would definitely produce more "honest" ukemi.

A crust eaten in peace is better than a banquet partaken in anxiety.
- Aesop
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Old 08-21-2004, 12:24 PM   #37
tedehara
 
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Re: To resist or not to resist

Quote:
Mary Kuhner wrote:
Speaking only for myself, there are moves (and Ki Society style seems particularly rich in them) that I just can't understand if I start out doing them against resistance..
Mary Kaye
Wait until you reach a level when uke holds softly and starts extending ki. It becomes a whole new ballgame.

The question of holding with resistance becomes moot.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 08-23-2004, 08:15 AM   #38
Ron Tisdale
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Re: To resist or not to resist

Hi Suren,

Quote:
Ron, you misinterpreted the situation. They don't try to teach you anything, but the way they practice is different.
Oh, I understand what you are saying...I was more responding to Mr. S's post. I like the kind of practice he suggests with specific people that I trust a lot...I wouldn't and don't train that way with everyone. For one I'm not good enough to be that on the ball, for two I don't think its always fair to your partner. I also think it gets carried too far sometimes. Competition can come out in sneaky little ways when there is no formal outlet for it. Heck, sometimes it comes out for me on these boards...

Ron

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