Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-15-2004, 12:50 AM   #1
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Ai symbol Telegraphing Techniques

Hey folks,

In our dojo I try to inculcate the habit of not telegraphing attacks so that Tori gets the chance to work with an attack that is as focused as possible, without having all the extra niceties (holes) that make it easier to apply technique.

Recently though I've been applying this concept to Tori's techniques as well. In our randori where counters from a resistant uke is a norm, it is often to one's tactical advantage not to telegraph what technique one may be attempting, as this way it becomes more difficult for your partner to figure out where you plan to go next and resist/negate the movement as a result.

In the case of atemi waza (as a strike or as a throw), I have also seen this work wonders where one goes from a position of total relaxation to explosive entry and technique (usually with Sen timing), and then back to a relaxed state. In the midst of this, Uke literally does not see the technique coming and just enters and is thrown before any resistance can be mounted. Gedan ate shows this movement in a great way using Sen timing by suddenly dropping out of Uke's line of sight at the last instant, with Uke only realising that his attack has not landed and he has been thrown after he is already on the floor.

This also works for techs that use Go no Sen timing, like kotegaeshi where Tori plunges Uke into a sort of vacuum when he attacks. Before he realises that the attack has not landed, he is on his back.

So I was wondering if any others were trying out this concept whether deliberately or otherwise and what experiences they may have had.

Onegaishimasu.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2004, 01:33 AM   #2
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,035
United_States
Offline
Re: Telegraphing Techniques

telegraphing technique in randori ?

I believe Peter mentioned something about Tomiki Sensei being big on
mushin no kamae.

Add to that Tohei Sensei's formulation of "Ki is extending".

then how we might put is
responding proactively in the moment to the Ki of the situation with no anticipation and therefore no telegraphing.


  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2004, 09:41 AM   #3
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Telegraphing Techniques

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
I believe Peter mentioned something about Tomiki Sensei being big on mushin no kamae.
Actually that is supposed to be Mushin Mugamae - No Mind, no Stance - which if used correctly allows for no telegraphing of technique. The question is "how often is it really used this way?"

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Add to that Tohei Sensei's formulation of "Ki is extending".
Exactly, and if one's partner is receptive enough to the slight nuances of this "extension" then one can interpret where one's technique may move to next and thus be able to nullify it by utilising that extension by being comparatively receptive to movement of mind and body. In fact we use this a lot in Shodokan tanto randori (non-cooperative practice) to set up a person for a follow-up technique as he tries to counter.

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
responding proactively in the moment to the Ki of the situation with no anticipation and therefore no telegraphing.
Agreed. In a perfect world though. If this were always the case then there would not be such a thing as kaeshiwaza. To adapt and henceforth, apply kaeshi waza, especially during non-cooperative practice, one needs to remain sensitive to the subtle changes that are taking place, while at the same time not overly projecting what one is going to do next in the form of technique, lest one's partner detect it in time to counter it effectively.

In effect, this is application of mushin mugamae, keeping the mind and body totally relaxed and fluid (empty even) whilst engaged with one's partner, to be able to switch naturally without any projection of what one may do next through muscular tension or other signals that can tell a sensitive partner where one is going next with technique and movement. This same concept is applied in Judo standing randori, which allows one to sense which kuzushi and technique may work best in a situation based on his partner's movements. The thing is, both are trying to do the same thing, so not telegraphing one's movement while remaining sensitive to the other's is important.

Just my thoughts.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2004, 09:49 AM   #4
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,888
United_States
Offline
Re: Telegraphing Techniques

IMHO, I like minimizing waza. Staying relaxed and only moving what is necessary. less movement, less telegraphed.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2004, 02:57 PM   #5
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 434
United_States
Offline
Re: Telegraphing Techniques

I will say that in my (limited) experience, one thing that sets sensei apart is this sort of feeling...like the technique happens before I see it being set up. With others, I notice more telegraphing, such as the lead around for iriminage. I remember Nadeau-sensei lecturing on 'process, not result'. I think part of the reason we study so much 'connect the dots' step-by-step in Yoshokai is to get used to each part of the movement as a coherent motion that could lead into several next movements. For instance, the whirl-around for iriminage is its own movement, with its intent to keep out of harm's way and off-balance uke; both the possibility that they'll try to stand quickly and you can throw them backwards with that motion, and the possibility that they'll keep falling forward into, say, a collar-grasp breath throw, are also independent movements. Or so I think. Thanks, Larry, for bringing this up, I will try to implement it in my training.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2004, 09:34 PM   #6
Lyle Laizure
 
Lyle Laizure's Avatar
Dojo: Hinode Dojo LLC
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 563
United_States
Offline
Re: Telegraphing Techniques

I enjoy this type of practice. It helps though when you have advanced practice partners. No worries about people getting hurt then.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2004, 09:59 PM   #7
Robert Cheshire
 
Robert Cheshire's Avatar
Dojo: Yoseikan Budo/Aikido
Location: Texas
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: Telegraphing Techniques

One obvious way to minimize telegraphing is to not have a technique in mind. Tai Sabaki out of the attack, apply kuzushi, then throw with what presents itself. Of course, this is eaiser to type than to do I know. This is one reason you should try to apply your techniques from different angles than the "traditional" way of applying them. It also helps to practice - "what could I do if I try 'x' and I miss it or it doesn't work?" Find the connections and where the techniques fit together and I believe it will help.

On the other hand - you could "telegraph" to set up for a throw or reversal. I like doing this because it begins to make it like a chess match at times.

Robert Cheshire
Yoseikan Budo/Aikido
www.yoseikanbudo.us
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2004, 05:54 AM   #8
Mark Jakabcsin
Dojo: Charlotte Systema, Charlotte, NC
Location: Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 207
United_States
Offline
Re: Telegraphing Techniques

Telegraphing.

This will be hard to understand in words without a live demonstration but here goes. I think/hope everyone realizes that there is a connection between our mental/emotional state and our physical movement. Actually the link works both ways but that is another topic. A degree of telegraphing is caused by our mental state of 'trying' to punch, kick, stab, or accomplish 'x' technique. When we 'try' our bodies are full of uncertainty which translates into excessive motion, i.e. telegraphing intention. If one simply 'does' without 'trying' our body will eliminate excess motion and simply 'do'.

One of the foundations of repetition training is that over time the student builds his confidence in his ability to accomplish 'x' technique or motion. Confidence relates to 'doing' vers 'trying', hence the motions get smaller, more efficient and more effective. However, one can reduce telegraphing simply by changing his or her mind set from the get go.

In order to affectively change one's mind set we need to understand why we 'try' so darn hard. In a nut shell it's fear. We don't want to fail, look foolish, make a mistake, etc. so we concentrate very hard and try, try, try. All this excess mental effort and trepidation carries over into our physical movement. Don't be afraid of failure, BELIEVE you will accomplish the desired affect and simply step in and DO. Don't care or worry about failure. If/when failure happens ignore it and move forward.

There are some cool demonstrations to illustrate this point of 'just do it' but descriptions would be of limited value at best. Simply play with the concept awhile. Enjoy.

mark j.

My appologizes to Nike.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2004, 07:37 AM   #9
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Cool Re: Telegraphing Techniques

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote:
This will be hard to understand in words without a live demonstration but here goes. I think/hope everyone realizes that there is a connection between our mental/emotional state and our physical movement. Actually the link works both ways but that is another topic.
Actually Mark, that is exactly the topic we are discussing. How we telegraph what we are going to do next by subtle elements of muscle and mental tension, body shifting etc. I've found that the more mentally and physically relaxed I am, the easier it is to apply technique in a way that Uke does not easily detect where it's going or how to counter. In the same way, when I am tense or mentally strained, my partners tend to perceive my incoming technique easier and, if tai sabaki, kuzushi and timing are not perfect, they are able to negate, if not counter it.

On the reverse side, when tense it is very difficult to sense your partner's movements accurately, as your own muscular and mental tension gives off signals of their own and can confuse things.

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote:
A degree of telegraphing is caused by our mental state of 'trying' to punch, kick, stab, or accomplish 'x' technique. When we 'try' our bodies are full of uncertainty which translates into excessive motion, i.e. telegraphing intention. If one simply 'does' without 'trying' our body will eliminate excess motion and simply 'do'.

One of the foundations of repetition training is that over time the student builds his confidence in his ability to accomplish 'x' technique or motion. Confidence relates to 'doing' vers 'trying', hence the motions get smaller, more efficient and more effective. However, one can reduce telegraphing simply by changing his or her mind set from the get go.

In order to affectively change one's mind set we need to understand why we 'try' so darn hard. In a nut shell it's fear. We don't want to fail, look foolish, make a mistake, etc. so we concentrate very hard and try, try, try. All this excess mental effort and trepidation carries over into our physical movement. Don't be afraid of failure, BELIEVE you will accomplish the desired affect and simply step in and DO. Don't care or worry about failure. If/when failure happens ignore it and move forward.
Agreed. This is why I tend to stress to my more advanced students to let your partner "walk or run into your technique." In this way you are using all areas of receptivity and perception to not only detect your partner's movements, but lead them exactly where you want them by subtle movements of your own. This works like a charm for me during resistance randori training to set up techniques and counters. It's something I've been trying to refine for some time now.

Paul: Your Irimi Nage example is a good one. In fact, a habit some folks have of avoiding this technique is to duck out of it as the hand comes over for the throw. For bigger folks, pushing into Tori and taking him off balance can also negate if not throw off the technique (of course this is during light resistance training). In these cases one may be able to gt off the irimi nage by not telegraphing certain movements until uke is in a place where he cannot reisist, or by doing as you say, feeling Uke's movement and switching the technique to suit without projecting the change beforehand.

Good points all around.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2004, 09:11 AM   #10
Dario Rosati
Dojo: Zanshin - Milan
Location: Milan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 71
Offline
Re: Telegraphing Techniques

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Hey folks,

Gedan ate shows this movement in a great way using Sen timing by suddenly dropping out of Uke's line of sight at the last instant, with Uke only realising that his attack has not landed and he has been thrown after he is already on the floor.
Sorry for the little OT, is this tecnique specific of the Shodokan, or there is an equivalent in Aikikai?

Do you per chance know the Aikikai name?

Thank you!

--
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2004, 07:57 PM   #11
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Telegraphing Techniques

Hi Dario,

I've never seen Gedan Ate executed exactly the way it is anywhere else but Shodokan. Though it is possible that it does exist somewhere else in Aikido, though I am not sure of the name in Aikikai or anywhere else. The closest thing I've seen to it is that tech where Tori dives at the feet of uke and blocks his leading leg with his body before Uke's attack lands, causing him to roll, but this is not exactly the same thing as Gedan Ate.

If anyone knows if there is an Aikikai equivalent, please let us know.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Randori kocakb General 32 09-12-2016 06:29 AM
Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido Kelly Allen General 19 11-23-2007 03:24 PM
Gokyo-why? Steve Morabito Techniques 65 11-26-2006 05:18 PM
aikido and competition ewodaj General 129 08-10-2006 10:43 AM
Definition of "Dan"? H. Trinh Language 27 02-10-2006 02:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:54 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate