Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-16-2004, 10:21 AM   #1
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
Offline
Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

I recently was told of a fight which happened many years ago in Osaka between Steven Seagal and a now high ranking Tomiki instructor. Apparently Seagal broke the guy's leg. Does anyone know anything about this or have other stories of famous dojo fights?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2004, 10:46 AM   #2
Chris Birke
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 258
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Well there is always the one about Seagal and Gene LeBelle.

I've never heard of this Tomiki instructor fight - do you have more details?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2004, 11:44 AM   #3
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Probably a movie or urband legend
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2004, 01:58 AM   #4
JamesC
Location: Fayetteville, AR, USA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Well i'd like to hear about the Seagal and LeBelle fight...
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2004, 02:28 AM   #5
batemanb
 
batemanb's Avatar
Dojo: Seibukan Aikido UK
Location: body in UK, heart still in Japan
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,031
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
James Cavin wrote:
Well i'd like to hear about the Seagal and LeBelle fight...

Just do a search for Labelle on here, or aikidojournal.com or e-budo.com, it has been discussed at length many times in all places

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2004, 04:26 AM   #6
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

I don't really have much information on the fight with the Tomiki instructor. The guy is pretty high up or head of the Tomiki style now so I am sure there are others who know more about it than me. It would be interesting to know if the fight was planned or spur of the moment.

I don't know Seagal personally or how he interacts with Japanese people but I am not surprised if he was involved in a few fights when he was running his school. I know a few foreigners in Japan who constantly get into fights with the locals. Then again at 6"5 tall and muscular I can't imagine many Japanese instructors willing to take on Steven Seagal.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 02:54 AM   #7
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote:
I recently was told of a fight which happened many years ago in Osaka between Steven Seagal and a now high ranking Tomiki instructor. Apparently Seagal broke the guy's leg. Does anyone know anything about this or have other stories of famous dojo fights?

Hmm... Actually, the story goes ...is one of those encounters that we never recount...publicly. Bottom line, though:

1. something did happen.
2. it was witnessed by many people.
3. no one talks about it... much.
4. it is a good idea to leave it be.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:22 AM   #8
KamiKaze_Evolution
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 125
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

pictures or video clips please?

KamiKaze
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 11:53 AM   #9
vanstretch
Dojo: Kyushinkan
Location: Roswell,GA
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 123
United_States
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

I second the motion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2004, 03:46 AM   #10
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,318
Japan
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Sorry Shaun - if you know something put it out there. Right now it sounds as if the story is true.

What I know is that Nariyama Shihan was deshi to Kobayashi H. at the time that the latter was instructing at Seagal's dojo in Osaka. As the latter got confident he got mouthy with Kobayashi and Nariyama was not impressed. I heard words were exchanged but that was about it. By the way Nariyama is much smaller than Seagal but I would put my money on him any time - the man even now is one scary dude. There is a pici on my Dojo homepage below of Nariyama about that time. I've never heard of a broken leg.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2004, 01:08 PM   #11
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Sorry Shaun - if you know something put it out there. Right now it sounds as if the story is true.

What I know is that Nariyama Shihan was deshi to Kobayashi H. at the time that the latter was instructing at Seagal's dojo in Osaka. As the latter got confident he got mouthy with Kobayashi and Nariyama was not impressed. I heard words were exchanged but that was about it. By the way Nariyama is much smaller than Seagal but I would put my money on him any time - the man even now is one scary dude. There is a pici on my Dojo homepage below of Nariyama about that time. I've never heard of a broken leg.
Peter-San,

Nice to hear from you. I can't really make heads or tails of your account. Sorry. As for what others have already written, I don't put any credence into anyone's account that wasn't actually there at the time. What I know, I got from Matsuoka Sensei, and he definitely was there. So, to say that it seems like it is true, well, that is up to each person to judge for themselves. I choose not to add anything to the rumors in the thread for the following reasons:

1. I would not be giving a first-hand account.

2. There is nothing positive that can come from anyone other than those who already know the details knowing anything more about the incident.

3. In past years when rumors have surfaced on web boards like this, I have taken the time and energy to give accurate accounts of those incidents. However, even after people read them, they still insisted that it occurred as rumored, not as it actually happened. So I no longer feel any obligation to set the record straight because I really don't care that Joe Schmo Aikidoka believes whatever he reads on a web site's message board.

4. The original intention of the post is simply childish. If the poster really deserved to know anything more about it, he would approach those who were supposedly involved and ask them directly.


As for that my sensei can beat up your sensei malarkey - please choose to elevate the conversation back up to the level at which I normally find your comments.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2004, 01:24 AM   #12
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,318
Japan
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

So send me a private e-mail and let me check it from my end (I'll keep it private). I got the story from a non-Japanese who was living. training and teaching Aikido in Osaka contemporary with Seagal. Even so the event was a little before his time. I asked the question because a certain Tomiki person who is training with you asked me about the two men knowing each other.

What part of my story doesn't make sense.
Kobayashi H. did teach at the Juso dojo during the time Nariyama was his uchideshi. That's been confirmed by sources other than Tomiki. You have an eyewitness account which beats my source (I never asked Nariyama direct) but I must say a broken leg is pretty hard to hide. Again I heard that it didn't come to blows but perhaps I asked the wrong question.

As for the malarkey - it is relevant. The point was that Nariyama would not have been easy to take on much less damage. With Seagal's size and Nariyama's demeanor and training I suspect there would be caution all round.

Shaun - there are all sorts of Seagal in Japan stories that need to be taken with a heavy dose of salt. Yeah I know some take a segment of a movie and think its reality but the man himself bears some responsibility.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2004, 05:03 AM   #13
Ian Williams
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 136
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Hmm... Actually, the story goes ...is one of those encounters that we never recount...publicly. Bottom line, though:

1. something did happen.
2. it was witnessed by many people.
3. no one talks about it... much.
4. it is a good idea to leave it be.


wow.... thats a way to kill curiosity!! so what happened?? huh? huh? huh??

Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu
Adelaide, South Australia

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2004, 08:15 AM   #14
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
So send me a private e-mail and let me check it from my end (I'll keep it private). I got the story from a non-Japanese who was living. training and teaching Aikido in Osaka contemporary with Seagal. Even so the event was a little before his time. I asked the question because a certain Tomiki person who is training with you asked me about the two men knowing each other.
Peter-San,

Yes, I was asked about the incident by the person you mentioned. Without revealing anything, I politely suggested that he locate any information using the back channels he might have access to. Of course, I am sure you would agree that a public message board is very far from a back channel. I don't see the efficacy of providing any relevant information so you can forward it back to the person whom I chose not to say anything to when I could have simply told him myself. Had he been perceptive, he would have dropped the subject entirely when he first encountered my unwillingness to speak about it.

Quote:
What part of my story doesn't make sense.
Kobayashi H. did teach at the Juso dojo during the time Nariyama was his uchideshi. That's been confirmed by sources other than Tomiki. You have an eyewitness account which beats my source (I never asked Nariyama direct) but I must say a broken leg is pretty hard to hide. Again I heard that it didn't come to blows but perhaps I asked the wrong question.
Actually, I got lost in your use of the pronouns, latter and he, so I was simply not clear who was who, and who did or said what to whom...

Quote:

As for the malarkey - it is relevant. The point was that Nariyama would not have been easy to take on much less damage. With Seagal's size and Nariyama's demeanor and training I suspect there would be caution all round.
What I suggested is that a person such as yourself does more to harm his own reputation by even instigating such a line of thought, and perpetuating it here. Personally, if I wanted to hit someone, then I would have done so, regardless of size or demeanor. Since you, yourself, admit this didn't come to blows, as far as you know, then the suggestion that Nariyama would have done this or that is simply irrelevant because he didn't and probably it is safe to say won't anytime in the future. I am not suggesting any particular outcome of such an encounter, because it would be silly to do so. It reminds me of the Seagal versus Van Damme malarkey of the early nineties. When the truth came out, Van Damme, whom everyone predicted would win such an encounter, turned out to be a ballet dancer. Now, Seagal Sensei has some bad clothing, I will admit, but I don't believe a tutu would be found amongst his wardrobe at the time of the encounter to which you refer.

Quote:
Shaun - there are all sorts of Seagal in Japan stories that need to be taken with a heavy dose of salt. Yeah I know some take a segment of a movie and think its reality but the man himself bears some responsibility.
Actually, I have spoken about that before. You can choose to believe what you want, based upon the sources where you have obtained your information. I am not so easily swayed to believe what I read on a website, or hear from nameless, faceless sources. I have confirmed what I know about these many Seagal, Japan stories through multiple independent sources that were there at the time, have nothing to gain or lose by telling the truth, and didn't know I was fact checking information I obtained through sources other than themselves. The only statement I will make is so well known that you could finish the sentence having read only the beginning. That would be, "The truth is often..... stranger than fiction."

Whatever you think you know about Seagal Sensei's past is only a shadow of a truth that was constructed to reveal and hide what needed to be revealed and hidden. It is like the old Richard Pryor comedy routine about mosquitoes - It goes like this... When you are lying in bed and hear a mosquito buzzing around your head in the dark, don't worry about it. This is because the mosquitoes that make the buzzing noise are the male ones. They make a sound that is designed to attract the female mosquitoes. You see, male mosquitoes don't bite; only the female ones do. Interestingly, female mosquitoes don't make any noise. So, when you are lying in bed and trying to go to sleep and you hear that buzzing, you should just turn over and go to sleep. However, when you hear nothing, then you need to be concerned.

Translation - from what I know, those who know about these stories don't speak about it publicly. Those who are out there talking about it, well, they don't really know a Van-Damn thing. If I was to tell you anything, it might turn out that I knew nothing, after all. So, if you want me to tell you a story....

I'll tell you what, if you ever get the chance to ask Nariyama Sensei, yourself, you can write me a private e-mail detailing what he says. I will confirm or deny it - in person, based upon what I know, should that opportunity ever come to pass.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2004, 08:55 AM   #15
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
When you are lying in bed and hear a mosquito buzzing around your head in the dark, don't worry about it. This is because the mosquitoes that make the buzzing noise are the male ones. They make a sound that is designed to attract the female mosquitoes. You see, male mosquitoes don't bite; only the female ones do. Interestingly, female mosquitoes don't make any noise. So, when you are lying in bed and trying to go to sleep and you hear that buzzing, you should just turn over and go to sleep. However, when you hear nothing, then you need to be concerned.
Hi Shaun,

Conversely, maybe you should kill that male mosquito, since he is happily atttacting female mosquitoes to your immediate vicinity.

Best Regards (and to you too Peter),

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2004, 11:11 AM   #16
Yann Golanski
 
Yann Golanski's Avatar
Dojo: York Shodokan Aikido
Location: York, United Kingdom.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 406
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Wow, what a thread! It's so mature and educational... <\SARCASM>

Seriously now...

Shaun, if you have something to say then please say it. I would be happy to hear it. Your post sadly suggests to me that you know but refuse to tell us thus inflating your knowledge. Maybe I did get it wrong and I am not intended on flaming you.

Peter, if you do ask Nariyama and he does not mind, I'd like to know as well -- either here or privately, I care not.

Considering Seagal, I have heard and read a lot about him. Some of those are first hand stories, some are court transcripts... Most of what I have heard make me take anything involving Seagal with a grain of salt... OK a rock, a mountain of salt. For those who want to know more, there was a transcript of a court appearance Seagal made that was posted on the board some times ago. A quick search should find it.

As to who is the hardest, who cares!!! If I wanted to be the hardest, I'd plant home made bombs with napalm and phosphor. BOOM. I win, you're charcoal. AHAHAHAHAHA ... OK, lost the seriousness here...

Back to game theory... at least I can get my head round Nash equilibria.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2004, 11:20 AM   #17
Chris Birke
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 258
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

"Whatever you think you know about Seagal Sensei's past is only a shadow of a truth that was constructed to reveal and hide what needed to be revealed and hidden."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2004, 02:21 PM   #18
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
Yann Golanski wrote:
Wow, what a thread! It's so mature and educational... <\SARCASM>

Seriously now...

Shaun, if you have something to say then please say it. I would be happy to hear it. Your post sadly suggests to me that you know but refuse to tell us thus inflating your knowledge. Maybe I did get it wrong and I am not intended on flaming you.
Mr. Golanski,

Nice to make your acquaintance. I thought I was clear. I have nothing to say regarding anyone's childish need to know details of the sordid, and rumored past of someone else's aikido teachers. I thought we were practicing the art of peace, not the art of gossip and nattering. I am not attempting to inflate my apparent knowledge of this or any other incident involving Seagal Sensei. However, I am asking that people consider having the decency of asking the source, if they indeed need to know the answers to their questions. I would love have the opportunity to see the expression on the face of anyone who actually confronted Nariyama Sensei or Seagal Sensei and attempted to come up with a legitimate reason for wanting to know about these issues.

Believe me when I intimate that these issues are better left alone, as the reasons why these events occurred are always more interesting than what actually did or didn't happen. Considering that the what isn't known, and that the why is even less likely to be known, or better yet, not able to be communicated without a revisionist slant, we would have a much more realistic conversation on which would have bettered the plight of Wile E. Coyote; if he had studied aikikai, iwama, ki or tomiki based aikido?

Any takers?

By the way, while we are on the subject, has anyone checked the whereabouts of Seagal Sensei the night Nicole Brown Simpson was killed?

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2004, 02:23 PM   #19
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
"Whatever you think you know about Seagal Sensei's past is only a shadow of a truth that was constructed to reveal and hide what needed to be revealed and hidden."
Did you like that one enough to quote me on it?

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2004, 03:29 PM   #20
Chris Birke
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 258
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Yes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2004, 12:25 PM   #21
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Hey Peter,

The person I heard it from is a Japanese Tomiki aikido instructor. I don't know if he got the information from Nariyama or from someone else. He just brought it up one night while showing me some tapes of Nariyama doing aikido in Osaka.

What I am curious to know is whether the fight was planned or spur of the moment and what was the outcome. Its interesting because both men are experts in aikido and from different styles.

Darin
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2004, 07:48 PM   #22
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 647
Sweden
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
It is like the old Richard Pryor comedy routine about mosquitoes - It goes like this... When you are lying in bed and hear a mosquito buzzing around your head in the dark, don't worry about it. This is because the mosquitoes that make the buzzing noise are the male ones. They make a sound that is designed to attract the female mosquitoes. You see, male mosquitoes don't bite; only the female ones do. Interestingly, female mosquitoes don't make any noise. So, when you are lying in bed and trying to go to sleep and you hear that buzzing, you should just turn over and go to sleep. However, when you hear nothing, then you need to be concerned.
Ah, it is a comedy routine. It is not true.

It is correct that it is the female mosquitos who take some blood before they lay eggs, not the male ones. But the biting mosquitos do buzz. Mosquitos that do not buzz belong to other, non-blood sucking species.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2004, 01:09 AM   #23
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Wow, educational thread. You learn new things about mosquitoes every day.

Seriously though, I think Wile E. Coyote would have had his best chance doing Ki Aikido. If he could develop his ki to be able to levitate and stuff he would get quite an edge. At least he wouldn't have to depend on those testy Acme rockets. Not to mention, for a road runner to run, he must have friction, just levitate him off the ground and into his mouth.

Oh, and Seagal may or may not have been at the Nicole Simpson crime scene. But I can't let you people know on a public forum like this, since with his CIA links and everything he may put a hit out on me, cuz y'know they sorta do stuff like that, and he is so tight with the CIA and all. Didn't you guys see the E! True Hollywood story?

Ok, getting back to reality now.

I now return to my state of lurkdom.

On another note though, exactly what Aikido technique allows you to break your opponent's leg? (Inquiring minds wanna know).

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2004, 02:49 AM   #24
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,035
United_States
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Seriously though, I think Wile E. Coyote would have had his best chance doing Ki Aikido. If he could develop his ki to be able to levitate and stuff he would get quite an edge. At least he wouldn't have to depend on those testy Acme rockets. Not to mention, for a road runner to run, he must have friction, just levitate him off the ground and into his mouth.

well if that was meant as a slam of a style you are obviously ignorant of this thread has sunk even lower than the low it started with of trying get gossip and then slamming Shaun for not wishing to engage in gossip of some very old incident.

if ever a thread needed to be deleting...

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2004, 07:36 AM   #25
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Look, everybody likes the "legendary" stories of their art. I don't see wishing to know these stories as some kind of moral weakness, they're fun and interesting.

However, people have no fundamental "right" to know these stories. Shaun, nothing makes people crazier than being told they can't have something they want. Intimating that you know the true story and then telling folks you won't share the details is a recipe for an on-line feeding frenzy. You're really better off not saying anything.

People need to chill out about Seagal Sensei. This is a man who has some very complex personas which he has created over the years. There are a small number of people on this forum who actually know this man as a Teacher of Aikido, not as some show biz hyped myth. Don't expect them to be contributing to the general mythology any more than you are willing to provide un-flattering stories about your own teachers.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I Need Aikido ?'s Answered PLEASE! Arthur Capone Introductions 34 08-20-2008 11:03 AM
Article: On the Interdependent Nature of Tactics and Strategies by "The Grindstone" AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 50 04-19-2007 01:59 PM
Brawling with a friend Luc X Saroufim General 227 07-17-2006 08:33 PM
the whole competition thing Nick General 26 02-05-2001 08:01 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:58 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate