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Old 07-08-2004, 05:08 AM   #1
JoHo
Dojo: Shobukan Wien
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Randori

Dear All
i did not see this yet on the aiki Forums.
this question is addressed more to the Sempais
right no i reached the 2Kyu , it open up for me a completely different perspectives and opinions for the Keiko
how you are preparing for Randori!
some times when I see,1 Kyu Aikidokas, doing Randori i don't understand the essence of it completely.
the techniques are limited to grabbing (pushing) only !
(of course speed is needed too!)
does a more "bigger" Aikiddoka not have more advantages in
Randori!

tell me what your experiences are

regards
Horst
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Old 07-08-2004, 05:22 AM   #2
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: Randori

We start randori on our first lesson. It's a process of making Aikido your own. Basics first, then kata to learn the technique then applications of technique in randori. The best way to get your randori better are to go back to basics to look at kuzushi (balance breaking) and timing -- first, second and third opportunities.

As for bigger people, remember: "The bigger you are, the harder you fall". Kuzushi can be very good at introducing your body to the floor. I even would go to say that the bigger uke is, the easier it is for tori.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
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Old 07-08-2004, 06:35 AM   #3
ian
 
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Re: Randori

Blending and timing and not trying to 'do' technique seems important in randori. Often we'll do something like a shomen attach. However if it seems people are becoming stuck in techniques I insist that NO techniques are done and people just have to move their bodies. Almost always they perform better, and indeed they can't help doing a technique, throw or even a smiple unbalancing when it seems most appropriate.

Also, doing it moderately slowly seems better - it also enables nage to be more proactive and develop the right attitude.
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Old 07-08-2004, 06:37 AM   #4
ian
 
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Re: Randori

I would say smaller people actually have an advantage in randori - they tend to move faster, can duck under arms, and they get obscured by the larger attackers. However once you're got, you're got!
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Old 07-08-2004, 07:08 AM   #5
JoHo
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Re: Randori

yeah it soundīs all good to me !

in my Dojo we don't train Randori regularly, just have a kind of advanced Keiko for higher Kyuīs.
i also think not so much on the form of the attack but on been effective.
my size is 5.5 and my Physical Fitness is good (yes iīm fast too)
a taller one must be brought out of balance otherwise nothing will happen. and not to forget to have enough courage to wait on the right maai. :-))
donīt you think so !
a slow keiko of Randori ! here too how can i know that i did break his balance or that i made a (true)takedown!
have patience with me
Horst
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Old 07-08-2004, 07:35 AM   #6
happysod
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Re: Randori

Experiences of randori - splat, that basically covers most of my randori ability. I'm always very dubious about "pretty" randori, it always strikes me a as a bit staged.

On a related note (allegedly), as an attacker in randori, how many fellow attackers do you prefer? I find that two other bodies seems to be the ideal number to take that annoying sod, sorry I mean fellow practitioner acting as nage down. Only one other is too much like hard work (and lead to potential damage when attacking) and more than two takes a certain degree of team work that is normally absent amongst truly committed ukes (read lunatics who are a bit over enthusiastic)
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Old 07-08-2004, 07:39 AM   #7
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Randori

Quote:
John Horst Koller wrote:
yeah it soundīs all good to me !

in my Dojo we don't train Randori regularly, just have a kind of advanced Keiko for higher Kyuīs.
i also think not so much on the form of the attack but on been effective.
my size is 5.5 and my Physical Fitness is good (yes iīm fast too)
a taller one must be brought out of balance otherwise nothing will happen. and not to forget to have enough courage to wait on the right maai. :-))
donīt you think so !
a slow keiko of Randori ! here too how can i know that i did break his balance or that i made a (true)takedown!
have patience with me
Horst
Hi!
At my dojo we spend quite a lot of time on Randori. We've outlined a number of movement principles which get used in a good Randori etc. Most of our higher kyu ranks know what they should be trying to do in a Randori.

But the limiting factor for most of the students, including those of lower yudansha rank is their inability to actualize what they can see in their mind with their technique. In other words, no amount of study of the principles will make up for the fact that in a Randori they are trying to string a set of ineffective techniques together in rapid succession .

Randori is ultimately about creating time. You have to be able to throw people when you need to, where you need to. At the kyu ranks, you simply can't do this yet. Most lower yudansha can't do this yet. So you can see them visualing a pattern that they can't produce with their technique.

So then it's back to the mat for just plain old one on one work on your basics until you can really do them.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 07-08-2004, 08:54 AM   #8
JoHo
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Cool Re: Randori

Dear Mr. Ledyard
thanks for sharing, i did also look on your website.
so far i understood that a kind of "no-mind" should be to be
good at Randori !
and is Randori "free" or is there anything basic or is it a summarization of the many Aikido kihons !

thanks
Horst
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Old 07-08-2004, 09:43 AM   #9
gilsinnj
 
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Re: Randori

"Randori" is many different things to many different dojos. We actually practice multiple types of randori all with the same purpose: teaching the student to deal with a chaotic situation in a relaxed manner.

- Turn-and-throw / Evasion randori: this is usually meant to teach the student how to keep going and now quit. The emphasis is learning how your spirit can overcome both your mind and body when they get tired.

- Multiple-attacker Randori: this teaches the Aikidoka how to use Aikido technique while being attacked from all sides with any attack. The emphasis here is to use your Aikido training and techniques. Even if you only use one technique throughout the whole randori, that's no problem since you at least made it through and dealt with all your attackers without quitting. At first, we only attack Aikidoka with a limited number of attacks, but as they advance, we throw in all strikes, kicks, bear hugs, weapons, etc. We normally throw 3-4 uke's since our dojo is small, but we like to use 5 for tests.

- Single-attacker round-robin Randori (Hammer Drill Randori): this is similar to multiple-attacker randori, but you only deal with one person for a set amount of time. The attackers rotate through after a minute or so, each time only being attacked by one person. This gets extremely tiring since each time a new person comes in, they are fresh and come at you hard and fast. This type of randori is usually reserved for advanced students going up for 2nd & 1st kyu as well as shodan tests. This isn't because we don't want the lower students to learn, its usually much more prone to accidents since the nage gets extremely tired and may resort to forcing things at the end.

- Bodygaurd Randori: this is a game we introduced at one point. It involves nage trying to protect a person from being tagged by either of 2 ukes. (It gets too difficult with any more than 2.) The ukes must try to attack the nage, and not duck around nage. This usually teaches nage how to pay attention to what's going on around them. They have to pay attention to both the person they need to protect, but also the ukes.

-- Jim
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Old 07-08-2004, 11:12 AM   #10
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: Randori

Bodygaurd Randori!!! I love it. It's a fun idea. I'll try that next time I am running a class.

*grins evilly*

Bit like counter-strick that is...

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-08-2004, 01:37 PM   #11
dark_harvester
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Re: Randori

What restrictions (if any) are usually set on the types of attack in your randori practice? Are the attacks limited to just grabbing and pushing? Are the grabs limited to strictly above the waist only? (I never see anyone diving for the legs for a takedown or a tackle) Are strikes and/or kicks introduced at some point?
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Old 07-08-2004, 08:56 PM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Randori

Quote:
Robert Dennis wrote:
What restrictions (if any) are usually set on the types of attack in your randori practice? Are the attacks limited to just grabbing and pushing? Are the grabs limited to strictly above the waist only? (I never see anyone diving for the legs for a takedown or a tackle) Are strikes and/or kicks introduced at some point?
I can't speak for other folks but in our Randori practice I am quite concerned with safety. We start with grabbing Randoris both to keep it simple for nage but to train the ukes. Ukemi in a Randori is VERY dangerous compared to your normal one on one ukemi. One of the key principles of dealing with multiple attackers is to use them against each other. So every person I throw is designed to go straight at one of the other attackers or impede his movement. The ukes have to learn to respect that and see the throw as it shapes up and stop coming in or change their path of travel as the throw occurs, otherwise it results in a collision and potential injury. You catch a heel at full speed and it can break bones, not to mention what happens when you are rolling and your foot catches on one of the other ukes...

We work up from grabbing attacks to striking attacks that are specified (one uke does shomen, one does tsuki, etc) then we proceed to any type of strike by any uke. Then we cokmbine strikes with grabs and by this time we have to start getting the ukes to recognize what openings the nage is presenting so that they attack sensibly. It just doesn't work to have a guy decide he's doing a yokomen uchi no matter what and he runs right into the outstretched hand of the nage.

I really good Randori is one in which there is a rapid and very subtle communication taking place between the ukes and the nage. It can be very, very fast but it isn't chaotic when it is done well. The Randoris done by Matsuoka Sensei
at the two Expos, especially the second one, are examples of the finest Randoris you will ever see. I have films of the highest ranking folks in Aikido doing Randoris over the years and you won't see better than what Matsuoka Sensei did. Absolutely, works of art!

As for kicks, and diving for legs... well, you don't see kicks too much because the nage is moving around too fast and you can't kick and move well at the same time. As for diving for the legs... I wouldn't ask my students to start doing that type of thing. Someone would end up losing some teeth or taking a knee right in the nose. The wilder you make a Randori, the greater the chance of injury.

Randori is not a street fight. It is not some sort of simulated street combat. It is really a form of moving meditation in which you have to be completely in the moment and unattached to the success of any particular technique because you have only an instant in which to do it before you have to be doing the next one. There's no need to make it too crazy for it to do what it needs to do for your training.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 07-09-2004, 03:10 AM   #13
JoHo
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Re: Randori

pardon to repeat my question !
but iīm curious about Randori !
i also did not know nor visualized that there are different kind of Randoris.
Mr. Ledyard if someone grab you, isnīt it to late ! because sure a other Aikidoka are just waiting on his chance too.
i still cannot understand how Randori can / will work.
till now i just saw a kind of chaotic by Randori keiko.
i need a Randori satori :-)
Horst
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Old 07-09-2004, 03:56 AM   #14
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: Randori

Check out some of my old posts... there's a detailed description of how our club does it.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-09-2004, 04:31 AM   #15
JoHo
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Re: Randori

ah i see
Mr. Golanski
i checked out your website.
if i can say thatīs a bit different kind of Aikido. a different approach of the wonderful Aikido.
also good for me was the article about tied and fold a hakama.
in our Dojo we start to wear Hakama from the 2 kyu on.
yeah now i have a few things to get through in my mind.
regards
Horst
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Old 07-09-2004, 05:11 AM   #16
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: Randori

Glad that it was of some help. We don't wear hakama at all but that's standard for us. Aikido's differences is what makes the art interesting, at least in my opinion.

BTW, It's Dr Golanski if you really want to be formal but Yann is perfectly fine and preferred.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-09-2004, 05:29 AM   #17
JoHo
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Re: Randori

truly ! what kind of Dr ? you are
Yann
iīm not a native english speaker and so iīm quite happy that i can keep up with all the informations.
and that you all simply accept (in a way!) my poor english writing )

regards
Horst
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Old 07-09-2004, 05:34 AM   #18
happysod
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Re: Randori

Horst, just call him shodokan thug #3, he'll respond correctly then... (leaves thread quietly stage left - damn, that felt good after being serious for too long)
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Old 07-09-2004, 05:58 AM   #19
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: Randori

*checks in "Sarcasm for really smart people"... yes, there is an entry named "Ian Hurst posts on Aikiweb"* ... Ian, what on earth, heaven and hell prompted you to be serious?????.... BTW, any relation to the Hurst of long range dependency fame?

Horst, I hold a DPhil in theoretical astrophysics, mainly in star and planet formation. But now a days, I am being a mathematician in networks, game theory and dynamical systems. As for your English, we can understand what you are saying. It's the main thing. Oh, and I am not a native speaker as well, English is my third language -- No, I'm not telling which ones I know. There is already too much personal info here.

Yes, I am paranoid (aka I know reality on a thiner scale).

Yes, they are after me.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-09-2004, 06:13 AM   #20
JoHo
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Re: Randori

Yann
just can say "wow" and how come your interest in Aikido ! didnīt see it in the stars or !
now iīm coming a bit of my own topic Randori
right now i looked a few videoclips from Nariyama Sensei.
i myself a good uke but this kind of ukes looks very "superb"
need for sure a lot of training to get on this level, isnīt true

Horst
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Old 07-09-2004, 07:41 AM   #21
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: Randori

The reasons I started Aikido are ... compicated. Maybe another time.

Nariyama Sensei is indeed awesome. I was lucky to uked a few times for him and it's quite something.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-11-2004, 06:31 PM   #22
gilsinnj
 
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Re: Randori

Quote:
Robert Dennis wrote:
What restrictions (if any) are usually set on the types of attack in your randori practice? Are the attacks limited to just grabbing and pushing? Are the grabs limited to strictly above the waist only? (I never see anyone diving for the legs for a takedown or a tackle) Are strikes and/or kicks introduced at some point?
It all depends on the level of the student.

We've been known to throw new students (a couple weeks of practice) into randori practice to let them understand what it feels like. We usually only do turn-and-throw randori with them, very slowly, and with all uke's being very controlled.

For slightly more advanced students, we might allow simple attacks, like yokeman, shoman, and tski. For 2nd kyu and above, we usually allow any attack or kick. The kicks are slightly telegraphed just to prevent "bad things" from happening.

-- Jim
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Old 07-29-2004, 02:03 PM   #23
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Randori

When I was first introduced to randori it was open to any attack. It was difficult but wasn't all that bad once you became accustomed to it. For some reason we got away from that and to ryokata tori only. Now it is difficult with multiple types of attacks. It is like anything you do, it is what you put into it. You have to practice and your technique will get better. It is best, in my opinion, not to wait until a student is at 2nd or 1st kyu to start learning randori or other techniques. The sooner one is exposed the better assimilated the individual will be in the long run.

As far as the larger attacker goes, so long as the uke or attacker is giving a commited attack (which is difficult to get from beginners sometimes) everyone should fall with the same ease.

Timing however is going to be paramount when it comes to randori. You have to control maai, deai, and zanshin. (The distance between uke and nage, the meeting in the middle, and paying attention after the through to everything that is going around.)

Lyle Laizure
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Old 07-29-2004, 06:37 PM   #24
senseimike
 
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Re: Randori

I feel it's never too soon to start randori. Beginners should have more experienced and compassionate ukes to build their confidence and skill level. I even introduce randori in the kids classes. As far as actual strategy, I feel that timing is very important. Another point to think about is control of the uke. There are many instances where uke can be used as a shield against attack or even an obstacle to slow attackers down. I do tend to throw ukes in each other's way, helps to set the pace for the randori. Remember, you're in control of the situation, not the attackers. While I don't feel that randori should be a street fight or full contact, I do feel it's a training exercise to ready you for a real life situation. If one can maintain composure when being attacked by 3, 4, or 5 uke then the goal of my randori has been reached.

Mike Taylor
Godan
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