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Old 02-20-2002, 02:19 PM   #51
shihonage
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Hey, easy there on John Edward.
Just because you don't believe in psychic stuff, does not mean that he is a fraud.

Just because you turn on his show for 30 seconds and see him saying generic remarks like "I get something in the chest area" or "a female above you", does not mean that you can judge.

Watch a FEW of his shows, and see.
See if people act, and if he only gives them generic details.
See the skeptics, the celebrities, even the cameramen being talked to.
Think about the Oscar-winning acting skills that those regular people must possess in order to be fake, or the total lack of brains they must have in order to be easily fooled (which many are not).

Then judge.
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Old 02-20-2002, 02:59 PM   #52
Erik
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I think that testing him would be really easy. Answer his leading questions incorrectly and see what he tells you about your dead Uncle Max who didn't exist. Wait, that would be bad psychic energy and his stuff doesn't work under those conditions but wouldn't he know you are lying?

Of course, Uncle Max might be a liar too. Maybe that isn't your Uncle Max behind you but someone else's Uncle Max who died from something in the chest area. Maybe he stayed around from the prior show?

And surely, Mr. Edward would be able to make a fortune finding hidden treasure. Just have him dial up the pirates on his secret wave length and they would lead him right to it. And why all the missing people? If Uncle Max has nothing better to do than follow me into a studio for a tv show then certainly someone who disappeared under mysterious circumstances could make an appearance to help convict their killer.
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Old 02-20-2002, 03:27 PM   #53
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I wrote a longish reply in here but then... uh... hey... good weather today.
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Old 02-20-2002, 04:05 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by shihonage
I wrote a longish reply in here but then... uh... hey... good weather today.
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Old 02-20-2002, 06:10 PM   #55
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Just my opinion, for the little its worth, but if you can not discuss what is good or bad Aikido here, where can you discuss it? Or more to the point, this is a discussion forum not a support group.

The great thing about a public list is that any opinion is subject to refute.

As a Tomiki thug (finally got to use that smiley) I have taken a lot of indirect critism usually by people who have not seen the practice, or even bothered to explore what's available on the internet. Never have I said opinions can not be expressed but I have the right to express my own.

I have my own ideas what makes good Aikido and there are styles and teacher out there, that I think are good examples of it.

There are also many examples of poor Aikido, again in my view, and I can usually come up with styles and sensei which are examples of that. It rarely suits me to name names in this regard but why not?

Again if I do express an opinion I open myself up to refute. If I go so far as to name names then I open myself up still further.

Just for the record:

Good Aikido: strong adherence to principles, good fluidity, convertable into effective if the need arises (martial).

Poor Aikido: excess movement, ukes flying off before techniques are executed (worse case the magical no touch throws), more talk than action, and the lack of what makes Good Aikido (see above).

Reason: Aikido is first and foremost a Budo.

Refute away

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-20-2002, 08:09 PM   #56
Peter Goldsbury
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Peter R.

I see from your dojo profile that you have finally made it back here. ようきんさったね, as they say around here.

This thread reminds me of a joke about heaven. St Peter was showing a few new arrivals around and they came across a large wall. Someone asked what lay behind the wall. St Peter replied, "Oh, behind the wall are the xxxxxxx." (insert appropriate aikido group). "They think they're the only ones here."

Personally, I think the way aikido is often taught encourages a kind of elitism. There is the vertical structure and you are taught to believe that your own Sensei has all the answers, especially if he has a direct link with the Founder. For the Aikikai, the person who is supposed to "have all the answers" is Moriteru Doshu, which is a singularly unfortunate position to be in. However, I suggest you look at the references to SHU - HA- RI in the "O Sensei's aikido" thread, for a way to go beyond this tendency.

Anti-elitism is one of the main values of forums such as this one.

Sincerely,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 02-21-2002, 02:12 AM   #57
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Strange.... I allways concidered myself and my fellow aikido-practicioners fruit-loops. It's one of those things I really like about it

Anyway - on the matter of bad vs. good aikido, I agree with a lot of the statements above eg. that aikido should have a martial intent, the uke should attack with sincereity etc. However I believe that all styles of Aiki-whatever has qualities - otherwise it probably wouldn't exist anymore, and before putting it down, I would have to study it for a while. I haven't got the time for that, so currently I'm just happy to practice a form of Aikido that is great for me.

I recently read about the tai-chi style my mother practices, and they talked about how it enhanced balance, massaged the inner organs and created harmony. They didn't mention the martial aspect at all. For me that probably wouldn't be a good MA, but if somebody enjoys it, and benefits from the practice then it's not for me to state that it is a BAD martial art (except for the fact that the Aikido outfit is by far better looking than the oversized pajamas'es of tai chi )

By the way. I don't know the tv-shows your referring to. Could we get back to talking Aikido please...

- Jrgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 02-21-2002, 03:27 AM   #58
Tim Griffiths
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Quote:
Originally posted by Erik

The point being made is that all Aikido is not good Aikido.
Don't you mean 'that not all aikido is good aikido' - or have you given up on us completely, Erik?

The first 10 years or so of my aikido life I spent in a Ki-style dojo which, although not in direct contact with Neptune, was certainly on the Christmas-card list (make that the Wicca winter solstice list). Yes, I was that Fruit Loop (I belive the technical aikido-l term is aiki-fruity). Who cares that you couldn't move big people unless they wanted to go? Who cares that there were ten gadzillion openings in every technique (I may be exaggerating)? That wasn't the point of the training, but to be soft, and flow, and if uke didn't want to, that was too bad for him - he'd get told to relax more.

Was it bad aikido? Yes - terrible. Was it worthless? No - I was able to take that ten years of relaxation practice and use it when I started doing aikido (as in real Ueshiba-ryu aikijujitsu aikido).
A lot of people got a lot more out of it than they would of got from a traditional aikikai dojo.

I've been to a dojo where they don't throw shihonage - they assume the 'shihonage position' and then tori lets go and nage sits down. Terrible aikido.

For these not to be bad aikido, you have to broaden you definition of aikido so much that it becomes useless.

When you visit a dojo, it really doesn't take long to find out the quality of the aikido. When you talk to someone, it really doesn't take long to feel the quality of their aikido. Think of all these shihan, with very different styles of aikido, all talking about the same things, saying the same things are important in practice. This is aikido. When someone says "Don't worry about posture, just be relaxed (limp) and imagine yourself as a giant avacado" - this isn't aikido anymore. Not as we know it, Jim.

There's a lot of terible aikido out there. There's a lot of terrible karate, terrible TKD and terrible ninjitsu. Thank God for Tae Bo.

Tim

If one makes a distinction between the dojo and the battlefield, or being in your bedroom or in public, then when the time comes there will be no opportunity to make amends. (Hagakure)
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Old 02-21-2002, 07:28 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
I see from your dojo profile that you have finally made it back here.
Got a bit a head of myself - this time next week I will be airborn. My name has always been on the board so it isn't that much of a stretch.
Quote:
However, I suggest you look at the references to SHU - HA- RI in the "O Sensei's aikido" thread, for a way to go beyond this tendency.
The idea of Shu Ha Ri is very important to how I see my Aikido practice. Still very much in the Shu with occaisional brief forays into Ha.

I do look forward to meeting you once I've settled and yes I read your post in the O'sensei's Aikido thread.

Last edited by PeterR : 02-21-2002 at 08:20 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-21-2002, 08:04 AM   #60
guest1234
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Everyone has a right to decide if a particular type of Aikido is good or bad for them. They can decide something is bad without even knowing what it is or trying it, it is their loss, and it it by definition a prejudiced decision, but if that is how they live life, fine. They can even proclaim their decisions, however incorrect or prejudiced.

But they should refrain from derisive, disrespectful names (wimp, fluffy bunny, aiki-fruity, fruit loops are just a few used recently)--- not only because it reflects poorly on them, and their sensei, but because it is against the forum rules. Sad we have to have a rule telling us to treat each other with respect, even worse that it gets violated.

Personally, I think a good solution to this would be to change the bulletin board name of any individual using a disrespectful name to that name, a month for each time it happens.
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Old 02-22-2002, 02:59 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
Personally, I think a good solution to this would be to change the bulletin board name of any individual using a disrespectful name to that name, a month for each time it happens.
Good one Colleen... I wouldn't mind being 'Mr. fruit-loop' for a while though

Anyway I'm going to stop posting on this forum soon, since every time I do you allways expres my thoughts better than my limited english can do... manage... say... explain... ahem.... you get the picture

- Jrgen Jakob Friis

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Old 02-25-2002, 11:37 AM   #62
Chocolateuke
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR




Just for the record:

Good Aikido: strong adherence to principles, good fluidity, convertable into effective if the need arises (martial).

Poor Aikido: excess movement, ukes flying off before techniques are executed (worse case the magical no touch throws), more talk than action, and the lack of what makes Good Aikido (see above).

Reason: Aikido is first and foremost a Budo.

Refute away
Does this mean that O-Senseiss Aikido is bad?? he would throw people withought or barely touching them. just a little question.

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 02-25-2002, 03:01 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chocolateuke Does this mean that O-Senseiss Aikido is bad?? he would throw people withought or barely touching them. just a little question.
Read what I said

ukes flying off before techniques are executed (worse case the magical no touch throws)

The magical no touch throw being a subset of ukes flying off before the technique is executed. Emphasize magic.

If Ueshiba M. was relying on the gymnastics of his trained uke to make a show of a no touch throw then he was doing poor budo and by implication poor Aikido. Excuse the qualifiers but demonstrations of Ueshiba M. relied on trained ukes, that is the main function of the deshi. Doesn't mean he could not handle a real attack just that if you want to look good you don't want some shmoe off the street. There is a biography of Ohba that describes the annoyance of Ueshiba M. when the former decided to attack for real. Ueshiba M. by the way did an outstanding job of it.

I have no trouble with the concept of a no touch throw. The threat of contact is nearly as powerful as the contact itself. The closest I came to performing one is where a student overanticipated what was coming. I didn't touch him, he went down, I got annoyed. Now if I could do the same with an unexpected technique - then I would be impressed with myself.

Not everything that Ueshiba M. did was outstanding. A highly skilled martial artist but human none the less.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-25-2002, 05:43 PM   #64
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Hi Peter,

You understand, of course, that there's a special place in Aiki Hell for those of us that aren't "Hero Worshipers" and believers in the "One True Way." (TM)

No matter, though ... we'll get some great training done in that "Hell Dojo."

Best of luck in your upcoming move.

Chuck Clark
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Old 02-25-2002, 06:13 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Clark No matter, though ... we'll get some great training done in that "Hell Dojo."
Shades of Dante's Inferno. Choice between the first level and heaven - I'll take the former.

2 more days.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-25-2002, 08:46 PM   #66
Chocolateuke
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[quote]Originally posted by Chuck Clark
[b]Hi Peter,

You understand, of course, that there's a special place in Aiki Hell for those of us that aren't "Hero Worshipers" and believers in the "One True Way." (TM)


I do Been there done that. I do not worship heros only God. and there is no one true way. if there was then only like 3 percent of the people would go to heaven and the rest to hell. I believe that there are many paths up the same mountain. But I also belive that everybody has the potentail to do feats that Jesus or O-Sensei did of course I also think that life it self is a Miracle and not something to be thrown away.

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 03-26-2002, 09:42 AM   #67
Bruce Baker
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Anti-Aiki-ism?

You know, there have been thousands of systems of fighting, if you begin to include the different styles named by individuals who have struck out on their own? And ... only the test of time and tide has provided for their immortality when all they wanted was a way to protect themselves in combat from others, or to be equal with other fighters?

Don't get all bound up that others do not appreciate the art you practice or where it comes from ... that is so much trite. A moot point to be discussed by old men and women in the fading days of life, not by the time and effort of today, your day.

Eventually, your knowledge will extend itself to understand your need to learn what you need to learn to have a safe and healthy life, whether it be hand to hand, weapons, or who knows what the future-fighting may bring? Look at O'Sensei. He could have stopped training at any level of searching and been content to be of some other school of martial arts, but for some reason, he didn't. Did that constitute a fake martial art, or a poor second class art? His students proved that not to be so, didn't they?

So, don't be concerned about bad mouthing of your art, or practice. If it is valid for actual hand to hand, or weapons to hand ... then it will protect you in your everyday life, won't it? Take it from someone who has learned to point out differences and simularitys at the end of class, not during class, as to validity of other martial arts and validity of techniques?

If it works, it is valid. If others talk badly about your art, it either needs fixing, or you need to get out more and make more friends in the MA community so they know who you are and what you do? Your friendlyness, and execution of technique in practice will speak volumes .... It did for O'Sensei?

Take in a few seminars, that is a start.
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Old 03-26-2002, 09:56 AM   #68
erikmenzel
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IMHO training together might be more fruitful than argueing about words.
That is what is wrong in a lot of schools and organisations: too much talk.



And no question marks!

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 03-26-2002, 10:02 AM   #69
Bruce Baker
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Anti-aiki/ magic throws?

I thought I had said enough until I saw the post of O'Sensei's gymnastic uke's throwing themselves?

O'Sensei was an exceptionally strong man for one, but isn't it easier to move an object in motion than a dead weight?

Simply, hit an object and see how far it goes? Take the same object, pick it up, and throw it ... how much further did it go? Was it magic?

Try throwing with your opposite hand, your not throwing hand ... how far did it go?

Watch the discus thrower, or the shot put thrower, then try it yourself ... was that gymnastics or superior strength and efficient use of strength?

As difficult as it may be to believe, O'Sensei applied superior strength with efficient use, and sometimes Ki/chi added like a nitrous-oxide mix, to enhance his throws. The human body remembers strength of youth even when it begins to atrophy and grow old ... muscles have a memory. If it is merely an introduction of adrenalin or hypnotism of the mind over body, it happens ... none the less.

When my grandfather was in the hospital bed dying, delirious, he threw the nurses and doctors across the room( about seven to ten feet) when they tried to restrain him without knowing it? When he awoke to normal conciousness, he was as weak as a kitten, not being able to walk, or even get out of bed?

Of course, how you interpret what you saw is like a hundred people describing what they saw, but that is where embellishment leads to disbelief, and here we are back to the beginning again? What did you see?
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Old 07-24-2004, 10:10 PM   #70
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Re: Anti-Aiki Elitism

Quote:
Ornstein Matthew wrote:
This is a touchy subject, but one that absolutely deserves to be examined. I have noticed that on several message boards, students of aiki arts other than O'Sensei's aikido are ridiculed as "not being real aikido," or "copycats." Of course this is usually done by those in aikido dojos who are not aware that there are aiki arts that preceeded O'Sensei, (some of which he studied, such as Daito ryu).

I am currently a student in a dojo where we train in Nihon Goshin Aikido (NGA), an art created by Shodo Morita, a contemporary of O'Sensei who studied Daito ryu, among other arts. The name "Nihon Goshin Aikido" was created by Sensei Morita and used officially in the 1940s in his dojo, and continues in the United States today. While NGA may have similarities to Ueshiba's aikido, it is quite different, and all who practice it are very upfront about it.

Frequently, I have seen negative posts about NGA and other aiki arts that are not derived from O'Sensei. As far as I'm concerned, those posting are uninformed and intolerant. I know this is not the way of most enlightened aikidoka, and it is clear that other aiki arts are appreciated by the highest levels in the organizations of O'Sensei's aikido. As an example, the Aiki Expo this year will feature as one of its teachers a phenomenal Sensei, Don Angier of Shidare Yanagi ryu, Aikijujitsu.

I am interested in hearing what others have to say on this issue. Personally, I believe we have more to gain by observing each other and our similarities, rather than disparaging another's art as inferior or not "true" aiki.

Matthew
I have seen the criticisms leveled against NGA on other message boards. It is a shame that what appears to be a perfectly good martial art takes such a beating. However at least some of the blame lies squarely at the door of the NGAA.

Most if not all credible martial arts organizations can provide good clear information about their founder. Where he trained, what he studied and who with. Unfortunately for the NGAA and NGA students, information on Shodo Morita, (NGAs founder), is patchy and inconsistent at best and almost non-existent at worst. This is where the criticisms begin.

The scenario works like this.
  1. A newbie to martial arts, using the Internet researches possible options and finds various Aikido and NGA web sites. The NGA sites state NGA is totally separate from O Senseis Aikido but has similar techniques and principles.

  2. The newbie finds a web site for an NGA dojo close by where they live. However since we live in an age where people are weary of being taken for a ride, the newbie wants more info on NGA and Shodo Morita. Where he trained, who with etc.

  3. Failing to find sufficient information even on the NGAAs own web site the newbie heads for the discussion forums to get the low down and find out what's what.

  4. Current Aikidoka posting on the discussion forums, most of whom will never have heard of NGA, do their best to help this newbie. However find themselves going round in the same circles as the newbie because the requested information is simply not available.

  5. The Aikidoka then return a verdict that NGA is some strange fridge group or some sort of McDojo and should probably be avoided.

  6. This catches the attention of an NGA practitioner who protests about the unfair treatment of their art and then continues to provide the same patchy information already found by both the newbie and Aikidoka.

  7. The newbie gets bored and wonders off to join Kung Fu instead and the Aikidoka begin probing the NGA student for further information.

  8. The NGA student replies with "I've told you all I know, I'm not discussing this anymore".

  9. The Aikidoka in turn reply with "You're not even practicing Aikido. It's just Karate and Judo and some stuff thrown together. That's not Aikido". Which gets the attention of another NGA student.

  10. NGA student 2 continues on with the same information everybody else has already provided and the thread goes nowhere.

If the NGAA would take the time to get it's history properly sorted and published in the same manner as every other credible martial arts organization, (i.e. dates, grades and instructors names with respect to the founder and current shihan), then NGA students would avoid most of the criticisms leveled at them.

I realize some of this information is available with respect to Daito Ryu Aikijitsu. However the home page claims Shodo Morita mastered a number of other martial arts. Including Aikido (not many people have publicly claimed to have mastered Aikido), Karate, Judo and "many weapon arts" (which ones?). But does not provide any details.

The man ultimately responsible for getting these details sorted is the head of your organisation. Shihan Bowe. If I were an NGA student I would get in touch with him and inform him of my concerns.

I hope this has been helpful.
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Old 07-25-2004, 08:27 PM   #71
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Re: Anti-Aiki Elitism

Quote:
Kevin Lynch wrote:
The man ultimately responsible for getting these details sorted is the head of your organisation. Shihan Bowe. If I were an NGA student I would get in touch with him and inform him of my concerns.

I hope this has been helpful.

Since "Shihan" Bowe was lectured about not calling what he did Aikido in the 1960's when he came to seminars by Koichi Tohei Sensei on the US East Coast, I wouldn't hold your breath on this one.

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