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Old 07-14-2004, 04:27 PM   #126
mj
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Didn't Tohei do Judo before Aikido?

And Shioda-san, Tomiki-san, Mochizuki-san and many others afaik.

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Old 07-14-2004, 05:47 PM   #127
Chris Birke
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

In my opinion, there are two main aspects to the "Have you sparred with a Judoka" question that have split this thread; I see both as being equally important, and in the interest of clarity we should make a distinction.

One, is the meeting of techniques - the Judo strategy vs the Aikido strategy - and in this there is much to discuss. I think this is more of what Peter initially expected.

The other is the Aikido vs the Judo with regard to how their training stacks in competition.

Because both Aikido and Competition are involved, people are bound to become irritated. =)
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Old 07-14-2004, 06:18 PM   #128
Amassus
 
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I'm going to put my humble opinion in here (God help me) simply because its hard to resist.

I'm only a kyu grade but all this talk of resistance randori got me thinking.

Is it actually possible to fully resist in aikido without someone getting seriously hurt? I mean, even if both aikidoka are very good and attempt to guide and move each other's actions to gain advantage, sooner or later someone will get a wrist lock or throw that the other can't get out of. Then what do you do? Do you resist kote gaeshi to the last and get your wrist injured? Do you succumb and take a breakfall?

Judoka train hard but it is predominantly a sport now. The rules and techniques have been refined to provide safety and entertainment more than anything else. Don't get me wrong, they are tough cookies, but they are fighting hard within a set of rules.

Aikido doesn't have the luxury of being a sport and therefore having clear 'fighting' guidelines. A part from a few styles of course. Those styles that do have a competitive angle have had to leave out certain techniques as well to make it safer.

So I guess I'm saying that aikido doesn't see much hard out resistance training because the majority of clubs aren't sports orientated and fully resisting some techniques might not end in a thorw but a broken or injured joint.

Of course this is putting aikido philosophy aside.

(Prepares for backlash)

"flows like water, reflects like a mirror, and responds like an echo." Chaung-tse
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Old 07-14-2004, 06:29 PM   #129
Chris Birke
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Well, there are competitions that fully allow almost all Aikido techniques. People are willing to compete in this despite the danger of getting seriously hurt, but I have rarely (if ever) seen any of our locks succeed (or even preformed).

Has anyone seen this?

I would be more than willing to compete with someone my size and skill level with rules that allow Aikido techniques.
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Old 07-14-2004, 07:43 PM   #130
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
mark johnston wrote:
Didn't Tohei do Judo before Aikido?

And Shioda-san, Tomiki-san, Mochizuki-san and many others afaik.
yes, he had nidan in Judo at 19 when dissatisfied with what he felt were shortcomings to it, he went looking for something else. Found this old man Ueshiba M. who challenged him to take him on and when he did found his ass flying across the room.

Craig
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Old 07-14-2004, 07:48 PM   #131
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
But put Koichi Tohei vs. a Judoka of the same stature like Kimura, Yamashita, etc. and I would put my money on those Judoka for sure.
like I said if you are going to dig up history.

speaking of which I will take that bet.

get a shovel and dig them up.
Tohei Sensei maybe 85 but he is still alive.



Craig
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Old 07-14-2004, 08:01 PM   #132
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I hope this this discussion encourages people to test out their Aikido more and expand its possibilities. Go to Judo school if you wish or get together with other Aikidoka to try some new things like sparring and such. But if you do go to a Judo school and want to try your Aikido just have the courtesy to ask your training partner beforehand, and agree upon the level of resisitance you want to randori with.

If some aikidoka came to my school and did randori with me and then went to some forum to post that he had tossed a Judoka I would be pretty pissed, especially since I intentionally do not go all out with new people that come to our class. I also let people throw me all the time during randori because most randori is about learning and helping your partner learn as well. Heavy randori is generally left to people who have a little more experience and there is a general agreement before this kind of sparring. Just like you don't do full strength Aikido throws on beginners right? At least I hope not. This would be like me going to an Aikido school saying I was a beginner and then when doing practice throwing an unsuspecting Aikidoka down and choking them, after that running to the internet to tell all how I thrashed an Aikidoka today.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 07-14-2004 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 07-14-2004, 08:02 PM   #133
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
like I said if you are going to dig up history.

speaking of which I will take that bet.

get a shovel and dig them up.
Tohei Sensei maybe 85 but he is still alive.



Craig
Well Yamashita is still alive as well so you are on
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Old 07-14-2004, 10:29 PM   #134
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

[quote=Nathan Gidney]I like the part about keeping your distance. I still think it's better to just pick up a rock and throw it at them though. Well... Maybe a brick or a cinder block would be better.

Hey Nate, anything that works is OK, after all in Aikido, we are train to fight so as not to lose; without too many rules and regulations very dissimlar to sport.

How about this: Throw a brick at your opponent, while he is distracted, run towards him at Godspeed, grab your tsuke with your right hand, saya with the left, then commit a kesagiri cut followed by a shomen cut, return blade to saya. Bow, walk off. Opps too much watching Rurouni kenshin anime. Sorry to all.


Boon

Last edited by xuzen : 07-14-2004 at 10:31 PM.

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Old 07-15-2004, 06:53 AM   #135
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Well said Boon.

This is similar to my take on it. If you're going to do Judo randori in a Judo dojo the rules imply that you folow Judo rules and don't try any funny stuff. However, if it is an open situation where the rules are blurred, use what weapon/art works best for you.

I say - always take your best knife to a knife fight and stick to the rules of the game, but pack your 9MM in case they want to change the game and go all out.

Aikido is my 9.

On another note - Hiden Mitsurugi Rocks!!!

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 07-15-2004, 09:02 AM   #136
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Im only a kyu grade at the mo, but my school trains in many MA. There is a Shodan Aikido and Iado guy at our school, who is very good (as moset shodans should be) but he has only recently taken up Judo. I am a higher grade in Judo than him, but when he started, initially relying on his aiki principles, i was getting very frustrated... i could not close on him properly, and every time i got a grip, nasty things would happen to my wrist. After a few months, he has 'loosened up', so now when he does randori, it is Judo with the benefits of aikido, not Aikido in Judo rules, which make fighting him much more fun. There are a lot of ppl at my school who train in both MA, and it is very obvious which ones do practice Aikido and which do not... primarily in the way they move, and the fact that they are very hard to throw if they want to be stubborn. i have found that even in Newaza, the aikidoka have a good game with us judoka, as the training is very different. I find it hard to break their balnce on the ground as they are so stable. I love training with these guys as it shows where Judo is ineefective, and how to work against uncooperative partners (ie, heavily resistant) I belive they also benefit from training as they get to work at speed agains fast and strong opponants who wont cooperate, and who are trying to deck them at the same time. This is something that i hvae only seen at the higher levels of training in Aikido at my school.
I'm in the mood for a bit of a rumble now actually... time to get my gi on
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Old 07-15-2004, 10:53 AM   #137
mj
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I have a story, but it isn't very pleasant.

A few years ago a regular visitor to our aiki club (we were more iwama-ish, he was more ki-ish) with his new black belt. He had just sat his dan test and had passed.

While he was being congratulated by the club he approached me and said something along the lines of "well, your judo strangles won't work on me anymore". 'Probably' I replied.

At the end of the class he approached me and demanded that I try to strangle him - to which I said I didn't think it was a good idea. He took that as an insult (which it probably was) and started getting personal about it.

Ok fair enough, so I strangled him but didn't knock him out. He was doing this daft thing trying to move my elbows by chopping them or something so I tied up his feet with my legs so he had no leverage. Tap tap.

He never came back to the club and he was pretty furious when he left by the look on his face. I just shrugged when my sensei stared at me, I wasn't going to let the guy out of it was I?

Aikido rules, but so does Judo.

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Old 07-15-2004, 11:04 AM   #138
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Great story Mark.

You are right, they both rule and they both teach humility, something we should all remember. I like how you approached the whole thing.

Reminds me of that story with Seagal and Gene Le Bell.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 07-15-2004, 11:09 AM   #139
happysod
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Aah, the classic Steven Seagal method of aikido vs chokes... always a good one to use.

Note to self - one of these days I must write a cartoon strip where the evil (yet stragely inept) Ki aikido black belt visits another dojo and gets soundly defeated by the staunch and brave [insert style here] follower - just a thought as it happens with appalling regularity on this board....
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Old 07-15-2004, 11:16 AM   #140
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
mark johnston wrote:
While he was being congratulated by the club he approached me and said something along the lines of "well, your judo strangles won't work on me anymore". 'Probably' I replied.
.
LOL.

That's unfortunately all too common in human beings.

Give me a new color belt or a piece of sheep skin or dunk me in water and miraculously I am somehow a better/smarter/saintlier person than the day before.

It sounds to me like it was really his fault.
Craig
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Old 07-15-2004, 11:49 AM   #141
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1430

Above is a link to an interesting incident I had with an arrogant guy who was a 2nd Degree Blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do. Usually it is required that you go through a 3 month beginner course at our dojo before you allowed to go to the regular classes. He insisted that he could go to the regular class immediately since he supposedly had Aikido experience. It was obvious he had no Aikido experience at all when he just kind of flopped on the ground trying to brace his fall with his arm stuck out. Later he told someone he only had a freind with Aikido experience, as if that was enough to be able to take hard breakfalls.

After a couple of deliberately hard randori sessions he never showed up again.
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Old 07-15-2004, 11:17 PM   #142
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Dear Mike,

Just attended practice, and yesterday, we were doing techniques against kicks. Straight front kick, side kick, slapping kick etc. The principle of nage is the same, step in, reap & throw. Only difference is, move faster and must have more courage to irimi. The same is for weapons, side kick = yokomen ; roundhouse = gyake yokomen; front slapping = shomen, straight front kick = tsuki etc.

From the perspective of uke; It is much heavier fall, not very enjoyable. If I am up against a grappler (judo, aikido, BJJ etc), I would not recommend kicks, unless the kicker love ukemi from high position. Since kicks are used to extend reach, using a weapon will give you the same effect minus the instability. Wonder why kicks are still employed? Any TKD cross trainer care to comment?

Boon

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-16-2004, 07:50 AM   #143
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

against a grappler I think fast low kicks like in Muay Thai can be effective but still are risky. High kicks would be suicide for the most part.
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Old 07-16-2004, 07:06 PM   #144
Ian Williams
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

instead of an us vs them confrontation maybe we could steer the discussion towards how Aikido could be used against a judoka/grappler.. ie, what techniques could be used to break a grip etc so that the Judoka is not in such a good position to execute their throws..

Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu
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Old 07-16-2004, 07:23 PM   #145
mj
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Well firstly you will have to train in breaking gi grips (or any cloth grip) which is a different form of physics from breaking a body (ie wrist) grip.

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Old 07-16-2004, 08:47 PM   #146
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Why break the grip to begin with? Why not use it?

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 07-17-2004, 12:08 AM   #147
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Hey all. This site tackles some interesting topics concerning judo and may provide some food for thought concerning martial effectivness. After checking it out I will definately think twice before stepping onto the mat with a judoka.

http://www.matbattle.com/

Oh, and don't choke on your milk when you see this one kiddies.

Last edited by disabledaccount : 07-17-2004 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 07-17-2004, 12:47 AM   #148
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

LOL, yea that is an infamous site that instills grave fear in all heterosexual Judoka and BJJ guys.

This one is pretty bad as well about Turkish Wrestling, I don't think I will ever try that out. It is legal to stick your hands down other contestants shorts to get a grip since they oil themselves up.

http://www.turkishwrestling.com/video_gallery.htm
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Old 07-17-2004, 05:12 AM   #149
mj
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Why break the grip to begin with? Why not use it?

heh. Because you will get nothing from the grip.

Consider the grip to be like an insects antennae, it transmits all your intentions, your state of mind, your balance. It will be totally relaxed 60% of the time, giving no energy. When it is used for power, the power will not come from the arms or shoulders but through the whole body (in Judo you learn to keep your elbows lower than your wrists too).

Gripping is an art all on its own. Breaking the grip usually means 'retreating' to a more aikido-like distance too.

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Old 07-17-2004, 09:49 AM   #150
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
mark johnston wrote:
heh. Because you will get nothing from the grip.
If you know how to use it, even "nothing" itself can be of use.

Quote:
mark johnston wrote:
Gripping is an art all on its own. Breaking the grip usually means 'retreating' to a more aikido-like distance too.
Not necessarily, though I thought the train of thought for this part of the thread based on Ian's recent question:

Quote:
instead of an us vs them confrontation maybe we could steer the discussion towards how Aikido could be used against a judoka/grappler
At which point he offered grip breaking as one option.

Quote:
mark johnston wrote:
Consider the grip to be like an insects antennae, it transmits all your intentions, your state of mind, your balance. It will be totally relaxed 60% of the time, giving no energy. When it is used for power, the power will not come from the arms or shoulders but through the whole body (in Judo you learn to keep your elbows lower than your wrists too).
As well as in Aikido (or at least the one I do), it applies to tegatana. The same basic principles applied in Judo standing randori is applied in our Toshu Randori, the only real difference is in the techniques allowed. In fact it is from my Toshu experience that I have been able to work some things from the Judo standing grip. My only problem is in refining my Judo waza as the setups tend to be for Aikido techs of which most are illegal when I'm in Judo class.

One example of using the grip to effect techinque in Judo rules while using Aikido is in the case of dropping one's tegatana and weight onto the inner bend of the elbow joint to cause kuzushi, while steping forward and offline. This I use to set up for gyaku gamae ate (sokumen) in Aikido. In Judo this technique is illegal, but it's a good setup for things like ko soto gari and other techs that can exploit that back corner. And during this time, the partner's grip is not broken, just modified to be less effective in that area where you want to break balance and throw.

Just some thoughts.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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