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Old 04-26-2004, 07:19 AM   #1
Mark Balogh
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Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Can anyone help out? I don't understand why they teach you to finish infront of your uke? There is also a picture of O'sensei doing this with Chiba Sensei as uke. I don't miss out on anything so I'd like to hear what the explanation is.

Thanks.
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Old 04-26-2004, 09:27 AM   #2
PaulieWalnuts
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

First without causing distress to anyone. It is the way O-sensei always taught Tai no henko. If you ever got the chance to read the original Budo translated by saito sensei it tell you that 1. It is the baisis of all ura movemenmt ,2. It is also one of the first lessons in maai(distance)

So you start with uke holding strong on top of wrist( so tori cant punch up). Tori should not be able to go forward if held properly, then its alligning the toes together, turning the fingers and wrist in towards belly button and turn with hips.

In Kihon youy should finish with hips together and feet alligned together.

In ki no nagare. In iwama the Idea of kinonagare is to lead forward as well as turning, this is very very important to lead uke forward. So if you finish even sligtly behind uke he or she will be on you, it the same if you finish to much in front then they can attack your back. the idea is lead them forward but always be in control by making sure your shoulder is in front of ukes so when uke enters to grab and tori turns he also goes forwrard.

Im not saying any other way is wrong( i dont know) but this is the way O-sensei taught it in Iwama hope this helps
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Old 04-26-2004, 09:29 AM   #3
PaulieWalnuts
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

If you ever get the chance try a seminar with Mat hill he will give you all the help you need.
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Old 04-26-2004, 09:34 AM   #4
Mark Balogh
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Thanks Steff. In the picture though, O'sensei is definitely in front of his uke. I just don't understand this unless it is a ki leading thing.

Already have the Brighton one in the diary, I hope go and check it out.
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Old 04-26-2004, 09:56 AM   #5
Greg Jennings
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

1. Have uke grab you really firmly, particularly with the pinky and ring finger. Have them hold on firmly throughout the movement.
2. Put extension into your grabbed arm/hand. Align your fingers with uke's arm. Point the back of your elbow toward uke. Your fingers are more or less pointed back at your center and it's like you're hugging a ball.
3. Put your big toe about one hand width in front of uke's little toe. Shift your weight onto your front foot. There is a "camming action" in uke's hand, wrist, elbow and upper arm that breaks their balance to the front.
4. Tenkan and extend both hands to the front as if holding a heavy pole.

You'll end up with your elbow over the top of uke's. The front of uke's bicep will be close to the back of nage's tricep. Thus, nage is mostly overlapping but slightly in front of and to the side of uke.

That's katai. That's what most everyone sees, experiences in seminars, etc. and thus talks about. People that are accustomed to the more holistic, gestalt pedagocial methods of other groups and see only katai end up with a skewed opinion of the Iwama method.

The pedagogical method is 4-layered. Yawaratai, ryutai and kitai are progressively more flowing and more about leading uke's intention rather than just breaking down the body.

When I talked to Goto Sensei about this. He also mentioned that Yawaratai and kitai are the ura to the katai and ryutai's omote, respectively. I don't fully grasp it and I plan to discuss it with him in detail in the future.

HTH,

Greg Jennings
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Old 04-26-2004, 10:01 AM   #6
Mark Balogh
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Thanks Greg, you have been a lot of help in all my threads!
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Old 04-26-2004, 10:06 AM   #7
Greg Jennings
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Quote:
steffmiller wrote:
It is the way O-sensei always taught Tai no henko.
Steff,

Sorry about the duplicate posting, Steff. You got yours in while I was typing.

I thought everything you said about TNH was spot on except the quoted part above.

Saito Sensei said that the originally TNH from pre-war was different and that O-Sensei changed TNH during the Iwama period (Saito Sensei used the term "fixed") because he had trouble moving large, resistant uke.

The original TNH did not have both hands and the hips aligned with uke. Rather, nage was at an angle to uke and only the inside hand was used in the movement.

FWIW,

Greg Jennings
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Old 04-26-2004, 10:12 AM   #8
Greg Jennings
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Quote:
steffmiller wrote:
In ki no nagare. In iwama the Idea of kinonagare is to lead forward as well as turning, this is very very important to lead uke forward. So if you finish even sligtly behind uke he or she will be on you, it the same if you finish to much in front then they can attack your back. the idea is lead them forward but always be in control by making sure your shoulder is in front of ukes so when uke enters to grab and tori turns he also goes forwrard.

Im not saying any other way is wrong( i dont know) but this is the way O-sensei taught it in Iwama hope this helps
What Steff said. It's almost verbatim what I emphasized in class last week.

PS: Mark, you're very welcome. I don't want to come off as an authority. I'm not. There are others that visit the forums that are much more knowledgeable than me. I post half the time hoping one will correct me.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 04-26-2004, 11:48 AM   #9
senshincenter
 
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Trying to look at things in such a way that one does not have to refer back to a disputable history, and/or to the reputation of various aikidoka, etc., I think we can discuss this difference bio-mechanically. Assuming that the point of tenkan, or a point of tenkan, no matter what style of Aikido is being practiced, is the ability to alter the hip to hip relation between nage and uke, often through turning, while maintaining a proper body alignment from head to toe, etc., I think we are merely looking at two different points of references for marking the initial axis of rotation in Tai no Henko.

In the version where nage ends up more toward the back of uke, the initial point of rotation seems to be at or near the lead shoulder of uke, In the version where nage stays more to the front/side of uke, the initial point of rotation is located at the grab. If one does not reify the grab (e.g. make it an ATTACK), and the drill is allowed to remain a drill, the exact location of the initial point of rotation is actually irrelevant. What matters is how one travels around it. Is one in possession of directional harmony? Does one have body fusion? Has one maintained body alignment? Etc. If I can springboard off of Mr. Jenning's post, differences in both cases often stem more from pedagogical choices (which must include their underlying assumptions) than off of anything else.

An interesting note: While it is Chiba Sensei in the picture you mentioned, it is Chiba Sensei today that is quite a big proponent of nage ending up behind uke in tai no henko. Of course one cannot speak for him, especially me, but I do not think we can explain this transition in technique as a rejection of what Osensei did (with him) as much as we can explain it as an addressing of different concerns via a drill that is quite universal in its tactical benefits (i.e. how to turn and remained centered).

Thank you,
dmv
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Old 04-26-2004, 10:26 PM   #10
Jeremy Gelman
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Hey Mark, I do Iwama aikido and you only are supposed to wind up in front of uke in tai no henko "ki no nagare".

Uke shuffles or steps foward to grab your wrist and the minute his fingers touch your wrist (or even before that), you do a compact tai no henko, winding up in front of uke.

The reason for this is because you want uke to be off balance and leaning foward. You can see this for yourself by shuffling foward after you've already completed the technique. If you were in the right position, the uke will go stumbling foward when you shuffle further.
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Old 04-27-2004, 03:56 AM   #11
Mark Balogh
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Thanks David and Jeremy.
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Old 06-01-2004, 01:38 AM   #12
PaulieWalnuts
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Ye jeremy is right there. in kihon you line your front foot up next to ukes (toe to toe) and when you tyrn round you used finish with your front foot in line with uke. KI-no nagare is for leading forward. also osensei only used to use one hand for this but changed when he started stressing using your whole body
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Old 06-01-2004, 09:00 PM   #13
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Of course one cannot speak for him, especially me, but I do not think we can explain this transition in technique as a rejection of what Osensei did (with him) as much as we can explain it as an addressing of different concerns via a drill that is quite universal in its tactical benefits (i.e. how to turn and remained centered).

Thank you,
dmv
I was just watching some older films of Hikistuchi Sensei. He makes a very big deal about leading uke forwards so nage is behind uke in the safe zone so to speak.

Is there a circumstance in which nage would like to have uke behind him (or in which nage would like to be in front of uke?) on tai no henko. I can't reallly think of one. One of the ways I look at a technique to see if it is "martially" valid is to take a look at where the nage is if uke let's go. On some versions of some Aikido technique which I have seen, they only work if the uke hangs on like mad and gets projected out in front of the nage. That may be ok for moving energy practice but not very useful as a martial practice. If the attacker simply lets go, he is behind the nage and can execute all sorts of counter moves. Doesn't make sense to me. Tai no henko needs to put you behind the attacker (uke) so that if he attempts to disconnect because he doesn't like where he is going, he cannot do so without being struck by the atemi.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-01-2004, 09:24 PM   #14
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Yes, I would agree with Mr. Ledyard. Once one opens up the maneuver to a martial situation, no longer holding it to be merely an energy-transference drill, there can be no good reason for turning in front of an attacker's lead shoulder in such a manner. I think the dire tactical consequences of such a maneuver would in fact be amplified once one was dealing with strikes, etc., over wrist grabs (which I do not suggest is a valid attack in need of such defenses). So forget about follow up strikes from an uke that lets go - a nage that turns in such a way in front of an attacker's lead shoulder won't even survive the first strike.

dmv
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Old 06-01-2004, 09:24 PM   #15
Greg Jennings
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Doesn't make sense to me. Tai no henko needs to put you behind the attacker (uke) so that if he attempts to disconnect because he doesn't like where he is going, he cannot do so without being struck by the atemi.
That's why the Iwama tai-no-henko kihon excercise ends up with nage having some room to lead uke forward and uke's balance solidly broken to the front. Keep in mind that it's a slow, step-by-step exercise.

If nage initially enters too deeply, uke's balance isn't broken and nage has no room to lead uke forward. Uke does end up behind nage.

When done ki-no-nagare, the Iwama tai no henko and that of, say, Ikeda Sensei (the ASU teacher that I have the most experience with) doesn't look much, if any, different.

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-06-2004, 08:02 PM   #16
mic
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

The point emphasised in tai no henko by Saito Sensei time and again was that nage should match shoulder to shoulder & elbow to elbow with uke.
In tai no henko kihon, nage matches toe to toe & then matches elbows & shoulders as they turn. The final position should stop uke from being able to come into the front with atemi or kaeshi wasa such as irimi/koyu nage. It should also stop uke from letting go of the grip by nature of the fact that kokyu nage or atemi are immediately possible.
Tai no henko kinonagare is almost identical, the only small difference, due to the fact that uke is moving in, there is no need to match toes. Uke's forward movement will bring them into matching range.
If nage is too far in front of uke this will pose a problem in that attack can come in from the rear & it will be impossible to control it with kokyu nage or atemi. If on the other hand nage is too far behind uke, it will be impossible to stop an entry such as irimi/kokyu kaeshi wasa or atemi.
Saito Sensei often made an analogy between tai no henko & ikkyo ura in how they used the hip & arms to control uke, as a turn is made.
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Old 06-06-2004, 08:35 PM   #17
senshincenter
 
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Well there you go:

http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/tainohenko.htm
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Old 06-06-2004, 08:52 PM   #18
Greg Jennings
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

I think we're just missing by terminology. When I say "slightly in front" and "overlapping", I'm talking exactly about the position in the given link.

For those that have the book, I think it's on page 33 of Takemusu Aikido, Volume 1. I left it at the office, so I'm not exactly sure.

It's nice to see someone guarding their face with the off hand, btw. I was taught that way but see most people leaving the face open.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-06-2004, 08:58 PM   #19
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Well then there is still that little matter of what is going on in the picture with Osensei and Chiba Sensei (as a young uke) - because in that pic the Founder is obviously more in front of uke than Saito Sensei in this above picture and also more in front than Chiba Sensei does it now.

dmv
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Old 06-07-2004, 01:30 AM   #20
Bronson
 
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Well then there is still that little matter of what is going on in the picture with Osensei and Chiba Sensei (as a young uke)
Maybe he made a mistake.

Maybe he started to do one thing then Chiba's particular attack required something else and he was moving into that when the picture was taken.

Maybe he got hung up in his hakama.

Maybe he just felt like doing it different that day...just for kicks

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-19-2004, 12:05 AM   #21
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Re: Can someone explain Tai No Henkan the Iwama way?

Good thread with many varied opinions. One important thing that has yet to be mentioned is that Tae no henko is an exercise, and not a technique. Therefore martial effectiveness is not relative, as it is only meant to illustrate the main principle of applying kokyu in relation to ones hanmi. The aspect of maai is also ever-present, but that changes throughout the movement. Understanding how to apply kuzushi using kokyu and how not to lose the connection to the uke throughout the movement (by adjusting one's hanmi posture so as not to lose the connection to the ground in the rear foot) is the principle that is to be understood and developed during the tae-no-henko exercise. Without this basic understanding, one can't do any aikido technique. That is why, along with kokyu-dosa, it is still considered one of the most fundamental of aikido exercises, and practiced at most dojos world-wide. Traditionally these are practiced at the beginning and end of of every aikido class, respectively, as a reminder of the importance of this in relation to aikido versus ju-jutsu.

It is said that all martial arts classes should begin and end with rei (bowing). However, to show that we are training in aikido versus some other art, we can begin with tae-no-henko and end with kokyu-dosa. Pretty much, I can tell everything I need to know about someone (and their respective ability and progress in the art) through these two exercises.

With respect towards transitioning this exercise into waza, and whether to end up in front of or behind of the opponent, our goal is always to end up behind the opponent. This is clearly illustrated in the picture of Saito Sensei demonstrated by his finishing position. One reason why you would want to end up not totally to the rear of an individual (off on a 45 degree angle) is if you are in the process of applying atemi to either the face or the ribs of your opponent. However, it is important to note, that if proper kuzushi and kokyu is applied, the opponent can't pick up his feet, nor turn or enter unless allowed to by the nage.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 06-19-2004 at 12:18 AM.

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