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Old 06-07-2004, 12:59 PM   #76
Aiki U-Dansha
Dojo: Ryushin Dojo: via Amelia 30\b
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
An exception that proves the rule? A huge skill differential? Even in judo, open weight events are not won by small competitors.

Regards,

Paul

Maybe yes or maybe not: always remember that the old asian's stock (I'm one of them) were smaller than the indoeuropeans stock.... remember also the Hanmi Hantachi Waza where you are in seiza and Uke moves while he is standing.

Remember also the force of the women that are teorically smaller and less strong than man but are really good in many tecniques such as Koshi Nage...

is what's really necessary not the constitution.
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Old 06-07-2004, 01:42 PM   #77
paw
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

Quote:
Sung Gyun Cho wrote:
Maybe yes or maybe not...
Let me be more clear, because you evidently missed it. Mufine throwing a bigger judoka is the result of: Mufine being considerably more skilled OR a cooperative training session OR the rare time that Mufine "got lucky".

Quote:
"Ai Ki" is what's really necessary not the constitution.
Immediately (and I do mean immediately) after running a marathon, try practicing aikido. I'll bet money your performance suffers greatly.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-07-2004, 02:01 PM   #78
Jorx
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

I do agree with you Paul that the smallest guys don't win absolutes... but don't you think that usually the ones winning are middleweights and light-heavyweights? It boils down to this who can make the other one play his game (especially with the gi).

Of course some sports have rules favouring the big guys (judo, wrestling) but in bjj or submission wrestling it's maybe not that exaggerated.

I of course agree that size matters but in sports a smaller guy with more confidence and more skill and experience doing his thing his delivery system can bust his way through. (win)

And in street in average streetfights (if such things exist )we are talking already huge difference in skill and experience. (In the favor of properly trained fighter... whoever that might be, the attacker or the one being attacked).
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Old 06-07-2004, 02:25 PM   #79
Aiki U-Dansha
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
Let me be more clear, because you evidently missed it. Mufine throwing a bigger judoka is the result of: Mufine being considerably more skilled OR a cooperative training session OR the rare time that Mufine "got lucky".

Thinking this way..i guess what someone has learned of Aikido and of Martial art's spirit... I'm not polemich but it makes me think..

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
Immediately (and I do mean immediately) after running a marathon, try practicing aikido. I'll bet money your performance suffers greatly.

I think that it will probably suffer but will show me many things.
Long time ago, my sensei told us that only when you are very tired, you're able to know if a tecnique you make has some problem or it's nearly ( and for nearly he said not so bad..) good enough.This because many time you put many energy on any move while when you are tired probably you're not able to put any muscolar energy and only in this moment you show how much tecnique you have. It's surely a good practice to run and then take a session of Aikido training....



Sayonara,

Sung Gyun.
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Old 06-07-2004, 02:41 PM   #80
paw
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
but don't you think that usually the ones winning are middleweights and light-heavyweights?
Off the top of my head, it's the light-heavyweights that tend to win. I would guess that's because there are fewer heavyweights, hence the overall quality of the heavyweights is lower.

Quote:
Of course some sports have rules favouring the big guys (judo, wrestling) but in bjj or submission wrestling it's maybe not that exaggerated.
I don't see how wrestling or judo rules favor larger people.



Quote:
Sung Gyun wrote:
Long time ago, my sensei told us that only when you are very tired, you're able to know if a tecnique you make has some problem
Respectfully, I believe your partner will show you if your technique is good enough (it either works, or not). Being tired will show you your current limitations as an athlete.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-07-2004, 02:50 PM   #81
Aiki U-Dansha
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

Quote:
paul watt wrote:



Respectfully, I believe your partner will show you if your technique is good enough (it either works, or not). Being tired will show you your current limitations as an athlete.

Probably i'm too newby in martial arts and in Aikido to speak with you...
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Old 06-09-2004, 06:27 AM   #82
Jorx
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
Off the top of my head, it's the light-heavyweights that tend to win. I would guess that's because there are fewer heavyweights, hence the overall quality of the heavyweights is lower.
l
May be trues yes... but in the top level general I don't think that heavy-heavyweights are overall less skilled than lighter guys... But really I don't know right now... have to think about it.
Quote:
paul watt wrote:
I don't see how wrestling or judo rules favor larger people.
l
Umm... in judo you get points for pins... it's easier to pin smaller people than you... same goes for putting one on his back in wrestling.
Quote:
paul watt wrote:
Respectfully, I believe your partner will show you if your technique is good enough (it either works, or not). Being tired will show you your current limitations as an athlete.
l
Word!
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Old 06-09-2004, 09:13 AM   #83
csinca
 
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

If size didn't matter, would it be such a common topic of discussion on martial arts forums? Of course size matters.

All other things being equal, the bigger guy has the advantage. All other things being equal, the faster guy has the advantage. All other things being equal, the more skilled guy has the advantage. We train so that all things are not equal!!!

Of course you can overcome some size advantage with skill or other attributes (speed, ability to take a shot, good running shoes, a weapon). The bigger the size difference the bigger the other differences have to be to make up for it.

Looking at size from "technique selection" angle, you'll see that some techniques are better suited for a smaller person to perform on a larger person (shiho nage for example). It is simply easier for a smaller person to get under a larger person. I'm 6' 2" and my shiho is different when I'm working with some of our shorter 5' 5" folks than when I work with the guy that's 6' 9". I'm not saying which is better, but I do them differently because size does matter.

Chris
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Old 06-09-2004, 09:46 AM   #84
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

Quote:
Sung Gyun wrote:
Long time ago, my sensei told us that only when you are very tired, you're able to know if a tecnique you make has some problem


Quote:
[Paul responded] Respectfully, I believe your partner will show you if your technique is good enough (it either works, or not). Being tired will show you your current limitations as an athlete.
I agree with both of you...being tired will show your limitations...but in my experience, at least in aikido, if the principles and techniques come out spontaniously and well when you're tired, it goes a long way to showing your level of training. I don't see the two statements as being exclusionary of each other.

Good form should show tired or not, and good form applied effectively when tired shows a pretty high level of skill.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-09-2004, 10:52 AM   #85
MitchMZ
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

I am about 160 pounds and 5'11, I have a little bit of muscle...

Let me just say this, my friend Shawn who is 250 pounds and also 5'11 cannot move me. My dad is also around 250 maybe a little over and has high rank in Judo and Hapkido and cannot move me hardly at all when I ground myself. Is it that I'm stronger or have more weight? No. It's because with ther Judo, Hapkido, BJJ and little bit of Aikido experience I have I've learned at a somewhat basic level how to more efficiently use the muscles I have. I can say with the principles I've learned I have 2x the strength I did before. This could possibly be why Aikijutsu was considered by many in fuedal Japan to be superior to Jujutsu in terms of effectiveness. More effective use of muscle power and perfected technique.

I also tend to think suprise is the most important element of a technique. Because I'm 100% sure I could stop most techniques if I knew they were coming. Knowledge is power. If you could read exactly what a person could throw at you, you'd be awesome. That is how a master is.
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Old 06-09-2004, 11:30 AM   #86
csinca
 
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

Sounds like your skill advantage has overcome their size advantage. Of course it also depends on how things are set up as has been pointed out previously. If you are stationary and grounded and your dad is trying to move you from a static technique that you know is coming, I can see where it would be very difficult. But what about a little atemi to disturb your base...

Chris
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Old 06-09-2004, 12:04 PM   #87
MitchMZ
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

Yeah, atemi is a really vital aspect. I think atemi is really what can bridge the gap of size, that and skill, chance, etc. Hapkido has really helped me with that aspect of Aikido.

Also, everyone has their preferance as to which type of opponent they would hope to be attacked by in a self defense situation. Personally, size matters less to me than the fighting skill of the opponent. Because I really wouldn't want to be assaulted by a small, quick guy that is a good boxer. Nor would I want to be by a big guy that is fairly fast and has tons of power, and is a good boxer.

My sensei says to always presume the person that will be attacking is bigger and stronger, because otherwise they probably wouldnt be attacking you. He also says luck is a factor; you could be trained much better than someone else and win 9 times out of 10, but if he catches you with a good punch to the face and you get knocked out.....your done. Whether you were more skilled or not...your wallet is gone and your face is bloody.

Since my Aiki is still WAY less developed than it should be, I would probably rely more heavily on crude methods of defending myself...such as low kicks to the legs and other strikes. I can't wait for the day when I am skilled enough to use Aikido to end a conflict as nonviolently as possible...if one ever even occurs. I avoid conflict...always.
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Old 06-09-2004, 03:02 PM   #88
Jeff Haynes
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Ki Symbol Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

Right away I think of stories I read about O'Sensei, putting on an exhibition with local police departments. Taking on several officers at a time; many bigger than him. If I remember correctly he did not throw them all or even execute counter joint movements on most of them. On one occasion the officers and onlookers were amazed at the fact that they could not simply attack him, because he would be in a different place as soon as the attack began. Using the most basic movements of Aikido- moving his feet-blending with the attack and ending up behind them or to the side or where ever.
Just because someone attacks you doesn't mean you have to go toe to toe with them. In fact it's not smart to do so. I am a paramedic and have seen people seriously injured from one punch to the face. If that person had, even in clumsy way, thrown their arms up to block as they stepped and turned with the attack, it would have been much less devastating and they would have had a chance to exit the situation.
There are different kinds of attackers and different kinds of attacks and I believe that's what we are learning. Learning from a genius. O'Sensei spent his life on this, and his teaching, sayings and examples are very important. We learn to be smart as we practice Budo.
Sometimes "victorious" means uninjured. I know all the techniques contain the same thing- the basics.
I hope I don't sound like a know-it-all, because I am, most definitely, not. Thanks for your time.
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Old 06-10-2004, 11:11 AM   #89
csinca
 
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

[QUOTE=Jeff Haynes]
Sometimes "victorious" means uninjured
.

I'll second that!

Chris
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Old 06-10-2004, 12:57 PM   #90
MitchMZ
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Re: Size(strength) doesn't matter! It does!

Yeah I've always been taught the best defense is not being there. I think it is supposed to be a vague statement.

If you are going to go to a party but realize that X number of people there don't like you and something will probably occur if you do go...don't. IMO, that is Aikido at its finest.

Good comments from people on this forum...how does size or strength have any influence if the bigger guy doesnt have any contact with you? I may be able to crush a fly in my hand with tremendous ease (seeing as I'm much bigger and stronger...hopefully!), but it is not that simple...because that same fly is somewhat hard to catch and usually evades me. Unless it remains stationary! *swat* Don't be there. That is
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