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Old 02-19-2001, 06:52 AM   #26
Sam
Dojo: Kyogikan Sheffield
Location: UK
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the old low feint

On a technical note, feints don't really work if you are willing to commit yourself. The low front faint should be treated like a real kick and you should enter alongside (or 'slip' it) into hanmi posture and then execute technique. the second second kick (like a high kick) will be ineffective as the range will then be too close, but it will definitely catch you if you hesitate or are not fast enough (this gives time for the kicker to make distance). This is the importance of good footwork I guess.
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Old 02-22-2001, 10:42 AM   #27
ian
 
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The thing with a feint is that it doesn't necessarily mean you're even going to kick them; usually the opposite so you feint a kick then elbow or punch them (which is serious if you've just rushed into range).

What I'm slowly beginning to realise is that it is no sense dealing with 'a kick' or 'a punch' or 'a grab' they are all generally far too fast for you to snatch out the air. What we're really doing is dealing with their body;

punches reveal vital areas and allow you to unblance them, kicks are even easier. Whether you take someone down from a feint depends whether they have actually displaced their body (hips or balance/centre of gravity) to initiate this.


N.B. if they don't commit a punch it is hard to unbalance them because they are pretty stable and you have to force them over (or hope they just like leaving their arm out for an application). I think atemis/strikes/more aggressive entering are the best ways to deal with this and hope they don't do aikido! If they don't give you any yin you can't reply with yang.

I don't see any easy answers.

Ian
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Old 02-22-2001, 04:28 PM   #28
Jim23
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Quote:
ian wrote:
The thing with a feint is that it doesn't necessarily mean you're even going to kick them; usually the opposite so you feint a kick then elbow or punch them (which is serious if you've just rushed into range).

What I'm slowly beginning to realise is that it is no sense dealing with 'a kick' or 'a punch' or 'a grab' they are all generally far too fast for you to snatch out the air. What we're really doing is dealing with their body;

punches reveal vital areas and allow you to unblance them, kicks are even easier. Whether you take someone down from a feint depends whether they have actually displaced their body (hips or balance/centre of gravity) to initiate this.


N.B. if they don't commit a punch it is hard to unbalance them because they are pretty stable and you have to force them over (or hope they just like leaving their arm out for an application). I think atemis/strikes/more aggressive entering are the best ways to deal with this and hope they don't do aikido! If they don't give you any yin you can't reply with yang.

I don't see any easy answers.

Ian
Now I agree with this.

I've known guys who could do amazing things while on one foot. Go for the body as a whole and grab what you can, redirect, etc.

I've also seen guys who could fold a sand-filled kickbag in half, while maintaining balance.

Now, if someone on the street attacks - different story.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-25-2001, 05:56 AM   #29
Brian H
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
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one question

When you get hit by a feint, does it hurt? One man's feint is another man's clean miss.
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Old 02-25-2001, 11:38 AM   #30
Jimro
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Hello again everybody,

Getting back to defense against kicks I'd like to point out a few other attacks that are not normal.

Shooting the legs. Anyone who has ever sparred a wrestler on his/her terms knows what I'm talking about. I realize this is a grappling attack but I've yet to discover a method of defending against someone shooting my legs other than my knee in their face. (which I can't do during a friendly sparring match, much to my dismay)

Inside snap kicks. These hurt. Watch out for a quick snap kick to the inside of the thigh when your opponent advances or retreats. These kicks won't drop you but they will wear you down eventually.

Outside snap kicks aimed at the sciotic nerve. You may think this kick is a feint because it isn't aimed at the knee or the floating ribs. When I asked my kempo instructor to go full strength on the target area (I didn't believe him when he said it would drop me), it dropped me. Leg went numb and I lay on the floor for 5 minutes while others learned from my lesson.

Now in a real fight people get hurt. As it was explained to me once, "Choose where you let your opponent hit you, and you choose where you hit your opponent." If an opponent is willing to kick my leg and let himself inside my range for a bone break or joint lock, I'll take a bruised thigh and he'll wear a cast. I know my attitude isn't very "aikido" but I won't be taking lessons until the end of this year (I have an instructor lined up for when I exit the Army).

And yes...you can call me Sarge.

James

You are,
what you do,
when it counts.
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Old 02-25-2001, 12:15 PM   #31
Jim23
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Re: one question

Quote:
BRIAN H wrote:
When you get hit by a feint, does it hurt? One man's feint is another man's clean miss.
Two Sarge's on the same thread!

It can even hurt when you're the one doing the fake kick. I broke my toe that way once. The other guy rushed in while the fake kick was being delivered (the fast part before the strength is applied) and I connected with his knee! Ouch (then had a grading about a week later. More ouch. Passed though).

The fake kick is usually just to set up the next technique, as opposed to a jab, which, although it can do the same thing, is also a strike (but you knew that).

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-26-2001, 09:27 AM   #32
Sam
Dojo: Kyogikan Sheffield
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Explaination

james - can you please explain what shooting the legs means?
I am intrigued......
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Old 02-27-2001, 11:23 AM   #33
Jimro
Location: Washington
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Shooting the legs.

Shooting the legs is a common wrestling technique designed to take the conflict to the floor (or mat).

Wrestlers circle each other bent at the waist looking to grab their opponent below their circle of gravity. Watch a wrestling match and learn how they use physics and brute strength.

The "shoot" happens when one of them see's and opening and dashes in, normally trying to get a shoulder behind his opponents knee. Or a bear hug around the legs with a shove to topple the opponent. Not much you can do then except fall.

Some of the more popular UCF styles emphasize shooting the legs because it leads to a lot of submission holds. Remember when "Shootfighting" was the rage from southern California? Anyways it isn't an attack most martial artist will ever face but it is something to be aware of.

And it's something to think about if some TKD aficiando tries a spinning roundhouse to your head. Duck and take out the knee.

But like I said. A knee to the face when they rush your legs can be a great deterent. Not being there is probably a better one.

If that doesn't clear things up I'll see if I can find pics on the web. Black Belt Magazine did an article on shooting the legs a while back.

Best of luck in training.

James

You are,
what you do,
when it counts.
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Old 02-27-2001, 01:44 PM   #34
Dajo251
Dojo: Aikido Downtown
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I would like to say something about the "leg shooting" I wrestled for about a year and this was taught to me as a double or single legged take down and not a "leg shoot". Please correct me if I am wrong just thought I would add some input.

Thanks every one for the great responses

Dan Hulley

Dan Hulley
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Old 02-28-2001, 01:34 PM   #35
Jimro
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You're correct. Same technique differnent names. I don't know who coined the term "shooting" but most of the wrestlers I've sparred used it. Even one guy from Kentucky.

James

You are,
what you do,
when it counts.
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Old 03-12-2001, 08:30 AM   #36
George S. Ledyard
 
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Kicks

Quote:
Dajo251 wrote:
First and formost I would like to say that I have been doing aikido for two years. I recently visited a friend of mines kempo school I did not participate in their class but after my friend and I worked out for a while(he also has done aikido). I came to the realization that neither of us had been taught any techniques to defend from kicks. I am looking for a quick answer to 2 main questions...
1. I am sure there are techniques to defend kicks but in the 2 dojos I have trained at neither of them taught these techniques. Why is this?(this I guess is a question directed more twords the instructers)
2.How effective would these techniques realy be against some one who truely knows how to kick?

I thank you all who are putting imput into this
Dan Hulley
There are a whole host of kick defense techniques contained within Aikido. Most are designed to deal with the standard high kicks that show up in many martial arts.

I was lucky to host James Garrison Sensei, Hapkido Eighth Dan, a number of years ago. He was in agreement with me that in combat no one kicks higher than the knees or groin, anything else is too risky. Most of the standard kick defenses don't work well against the low kicks (which is why people kick low). Garrison Sensei maintained that the only real kick defense was to move decisively into the attacker's center and jam the kick. I agree. It is almost impossible to throw a kick when the opponent moves in like this. Then the actual technique becomes a hand technique, either striking, locking, or throwing (or all).

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 03-12-2001, 08:35 AM   #37
George S. Ledyard
 
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Shooting

Quote:
Dajo251 wrote:
I would like to say something about the "leg shooting" I wrestled for about a year and this was taught to me as a double or single legged take down and not a "leg shoot". Please correct me if I am wrong just thought I would add some input.

Thanks every one for the great responses

Dan Hulley
It is my understanding that the term "shoot" refers to the action of passing under the defenses to get to the defender. It may result in a number of techniques like the single and double leg takedowns, the suplex etc.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 03-12-2001, 08:44 AM   #38
Jim23
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Re: Kicks

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:

Most of the standard kick defenses don't work well against the low kicks (which is why people kick low). Garrison Sensei maintained that the only real kick defense was to move decisively into the attacker's center and jam the kick. I agree. It is almost impossible to throw a kick when the opponent moves in like this. Then the actual technique becomes a hand technique, either striking, locking, or throwing (or all).
Absolutely.

This is perhaps the best advice that I've seen dealing with (low) kicks.

Simple is best.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 03-13-2001, 09:36 AM   #39
willy_lee
Dojo: City Aikido
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Regarding fake kicks/feints...

The thing about feints to remember:

They work due to an expectation of your response to the feint. For instance, the low kick feint ending in a roundhouse to the head works due to the expectation that you will respond to the feint by dropping your guard or blocking low, opening yourself up for the high kick. If you confound the expectation, the feint simply becomes a weak attack. And a weak attack leaves the attacker open, right?

I used to fence epee, and you learn real fast that if you feint a lot, the other guy will simply ignore the feint and reach out and hit your wrist, since you don't _have_ to respond to the feint, as you do in foil. Same principle, no?

Also, if you enter into the attacker's dead zone in response to the feint, it's pretty hard for them to follow up with the real attack.

willy
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