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Old 04-20-2004, 12:23 PM   #26
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: versus a Jab

Not neccesarily true Ron. It's hard to describe in a post, but if you're ever close where you can lay hands on... I can show you. We don't have to get off line, the line has to change. That can be accomplished in several ways.

Take care,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
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Old 04-20-2004, 02:29 PM   #27
Ron Tisdale
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Re: versus a Jab

I'd love to get some mat time with you Clark Sensei (and not just over this question either...you could teach me a lot of things)! But in almost every situation I can thing of except sutemi, backing up in a straight line has generally gotten me into trouble. But I'm willing to learn...

Ron (I can think of some really nasty sutemi that aren't straight line though)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 04-22-2004, 03:15 PM   #28
Adam Garrison
 
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Re: versus a Jab

Greetings to all in this thread

There have already been plenty of truths presented...

A few things I might offer from my meager experience in getting hit with boxing gloves while trying to pull off aikido technique:

1. Do not underestimate the value of a trained boxer's jab as a primary weapon. I have seen and felt the results of some amazing athletes who ARE able to very easily get their body & center behind this quick attack.

2. Keep your hands up in a defensive kamae. The boxer can almost always move his fist into your face quicker than you can identify the attack and choose the appropriate aiki response.

3. Be constantly aware of the line of attack. You have two options with any attack - punches are not the exception. You can either move off of the line of attack or move the attacker of of your centerline. Basic premise = keep the center protected at all cost

4. If they can strike fast - so can I

O-Sensei was a firm believer in atemi - why can't we use them in a tactical manner?

Just some thoughts...

Respectfully,

Adam Garrison
Okinawa Aikikai / US Dojos - Washington DC
Systema DC / NVA Study Group
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:46 PM   #29
Jeremy Gelman
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Re: versus a Jab

A few months ago, one of my aikido instructors gave a demonstration of trying to take "kotegaeshi" on a jab. It was absolutely hillarious.

The jabber was jabbing at the instructor's face swiftly and every time, the instructor tried to do "tai no henko" and grab the jabber's wrist. Of course, the instructor wasn't very sucsessful and the jabber kept backing up every time the grab-attempt was made and the instructor wound up chasing the jabber across the room, occasionally getting poked in the nose.

Personally, I would step off the line of attack and do a quick underhand punch to his ribs like in "Wakiba atemi" while twisting my body sideways so that the jab doesn't hit my face.

For example, if you and your attacker (jabber) are in "gyaku hanmi" (you've got your right foot foward, he's got his left foot foward) I would step in with my left foot when he jabs and give him a "wakiba atemi", twisting my hips sideways so that his jab will surely miss. Once you give him the atemi, you can take irimi nage or something like that...

Any thoughts?
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Old 04-22-2004, 08:30 PM   #30
PeterR
 
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Re: versus a Jab

Quote:
Jeremy Gelman wrote:
A few months ago, one of my aikido instructors gave a demonstration of trying to take "kotegaeshi" on a jab. It was absolutely hillarious.

The jabber was jabbing at the instructor's face swiftly and every time, the instructor tried to do "tai no henko" and grab the jabber's wrist. Of course, the instructor wasn't very sucsessful and the jabber kept backing up every time the grab-attempt was made and the instructor wound up chasing the jabber across the room, occasionally getting poked in the nose.
It wont work. We do a lot of tanto work which is pretty damm close to jabs. Trying to capture the wrist and you are playing a fools game.

Taisabaki with simultaneous irimi - best would be gyakugamae-ate. Once you are in close and its not working you could switch to kotegaeshi if the situation presents itself.

Kotegaeshi is a fun technique but never my first choice. If your body position is right and you've gotten the kuzushi it can be devastating. Otherwise you have to have a compliant uke or a really dumb opponent.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-23-2004, 08:18 AM   #31
Adam Garrison
 
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Re: versus a Jab

To Jeremy's post -

I have been one of those poor bastards hopping around the mat - trying to turn tenkan around a jab.

The problem is the hand has already fired and is now loaded and ready to punch me in the side or back of my head.

I definitely agree with Peter on this one - don't even try to capture the lead hand. If you insist on locking them up, try to draw a more commited cross or hook.

If anyone has seen some of the instructional hand-to-hand tapes from Systema - there are some wonderful movements presented to protect yourself from boxing style attacks and set yourself up in a "money" position to perform aikido technique. I know it may be mixing two great flavors here, but I firmly believe that if it works - why not incorporate it.

Cheers,

Adam Garrison
Okinawa Aikikai / US Dojos - Washington DC
Systema DC / NVA Study Group
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Old 04-25-2004, 10:08 PM   #32
L. Camejo
 
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Re: versus a Jab

Quote:
PeterR wrote:
Taisabaki with simultaneous irimi - best would be gyakugamae-ate.
Peter beat me to the punch on this one.

Good tai sabaki and quick, penetrating irimi tend to work best for me as well against jabs. Using sen timing or alternatively, go no sen timing with sharp entry on the retract of the jab with Atemi waza like aigamae ate tend to work very nicely. I've found the tai-chi push hands exercises helpful for building the touch sensitivity for this, as well as our own tegatana awase exercise.

As far as the kotegaeshi idea goes, the attacker needs to relax the arms to maintain balance in movement, so atemi waza sets up for a nice follow up joint technique if the first does not work. On the reverse side, one has to relax their legs a bit to keep balance while resisting a joint technique, which sets up for a good follow up atemi waza.

Either way, the key is to avoid/deflect/slip the jab and get in close to control the limb, head or body.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 04-26-2004, 05:59 AM   #33
Jeremy Gelman
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Re: versus a Jab

Don't take me wrong, the instructor gave the demonstation for the PURPOSE of showing why kotegaeshi DOESN'T WORK versus the jab.

In fact, he said that there are two things that aikido is very hard to execute against: jabs and ground-grappling.

This is very true, I think aikido should maybe encorparate some ground-fighting basics....
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:33 AM   #34
AsimHanif
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Re: versus a Jab

I'll offer one response to try.
In boxing we typically ride the jab back. Depending on your arm length, you can be just out of uke's reach or if your arms are short like mine I fan or catch the jab with my right hand (I typically lead with my left).
I invite my opponent to jab and as his jab retracts I ride (or follow) his path back to his guard position. So I usually end up with a counter jab to his chin or nose. This takes some timing not speed.
When doing this without gloves it is possible (POSSIBLE) to ride the jab back and execute an irimi shihonage or kokyu nage. You'll have to either slide with your lead foot or step in with the rear foot.
Play with it and see if this makes sense. it's kind of hard to explain on paper.
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Old 05-13-2004, 05:17 PM   #35
lone_ronin
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Wink Re: versus a Jab

Quote:
Jeremy Gelman wrote:
A few months ago, one of my aikido instructors gave a demonstration of trying to take "kotegaeshi" on a jab. It was absolutely hillarious.

The jabber was jabbing at the instructor's face swiftly and every time, the instructor tried to do "tai no henko" and grab the jabber's wrist. Of course, the instructor wasn't very sucsessful and the jabber kept backing up every time the grab-attempt was made and the instructor wound up chasing the jabber across the room, occasionally getting poked in the nose.
I trained in Shinbudokai (combative form of ki aikido) where my instructor was actually very good at doing something like this. Of course he trained for 10 years in Thaiboxing before doing aikido.

What he would do is from gyaku hanmi(Opposite stance), as the jab came he would slip it outside, moving forward. Ending up beside the person arm on the pull back, and then go for kote gaeshi throwing the person backwards.
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:26 PM   #36
Ninja Mike
 
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Re: versus a Jab

My suggestion would be to go far enough away from him so that when he decides to hit you he must "unbalance" himself, at this point you would take advantage of his off-balanceness. but ive never had to fight a boxer, (or anyone, not that people haven't tried to fight with me) before so i wouldn't know how well that would work.

Before man had guns, he had balls!!!
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Old 05-13-2004, 07:51 PM   #37
makuchg
 
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Re: versus a Jab

From my experience the best way to deal with a jab is the same way a boxer deals with it-aviod. Ma'ai is extremely important when dealing with a striker, kicker, or grappler. The key is to create a mai'ai that is effective for you, yet ineffective for them. For example keeping a boxer in a position where his jab is ineffective (whether short or long) will cause frustration and lead to a overextended punch. In doubt, watch boxers. They do it all to each other throughtout a fight. This causes the opponent to open themselves up for the counter. However, the only way to learn avoidance is to train with a good puncher, as many of you have already noted.

Sometimes the most effective technique is no technique. Create an opening and exploit it. Don't force a technique where one is not appropriate. In the military we call this "tactical patience," I'm not sure if the Japanese have an equivilant term.

Greg Makuch
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Old 05-13-2004, 09:22 PM   #38
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Re: versus a Jab

Quote:
Eric Walker wrote:
. How would someone From deal with a boxer? ..
Run, Eric, run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nagababa

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