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Old 03-06-2001, 12:37 PM   #26
Greg Jennings
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Re: High Ranking Non-japanese Aikidoka

Quote:
Kami wrote:
[B}
Donald Moriyama - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
[/b]
Moriyama Sensei is Aikikai, not Ki Society.


Greg Jennings
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Old 03-06-2001, 01:51 PM   #27
Kami
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Unhappy Re: TO EACH HIS OWN(Was List of Yudansha)


Well, Well...To each his own...
TO GREG : you're right and I gave a shot in my foot. Donald Moriyama Sensei is Aikikai, not Ki-Society. Correction accepted.

TO LOUIS AND AIKIWHAT : Karl Geis was promoted to 6th Dan by Tomiki Kenji Sensei. Later he created his own style - FUGAKUKAI - and was promoted sucessively (in a period of 20 years) until the 10 th Dan.
By the way, there was a gentleman named Kano Jigoro who created his own style of jujutsu(calling it judo) and an organization called KODOKAN which promoted him to 10th Dan and later to 12th Dan.
Fugakukai is a serious organization and has some excellent sensei and Geis Sensei is a respected master.

TO ANDREW AND TEDEHARA : Tohei Koichi Sensei was awarded 10 th Dan personally by Kaiso who died soon after. After a year of mourning, the Aikikai recognized that rank and issued the only certificate of judan from that organization.

TO EVERYBODY : The same observation might apply to other people on my list.
I tried to use only well recognized and respected organizations, with the only possible exception being the USMAA, but my main choosing method was the quality of the masters listed (in USMAA's case, Walther von Krenner Sensei and Lou Periello Sensei). But, of course, I'm open to criticism from anyone. Addenda, sugestions for exclusion or corrections, are welcome.
Best regards to you all

[Edited by Kami on March 6, 2001 at 02:08pm]

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 03-06-2001, 03:30 PM   #28
lt-rentaroo
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Kami,

I wasn't trying to belittle any of Mr. Geis's accomplishments or his present ranking. Yes, Jigoro Kano founded Kodokan Judo and in a similar fashion you could say the same about O'Sensei founding Aikido. Have a good day!

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 03-06-2001, 08:02 PM   #29
tedehara
 
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Post Mortem Promotions

Quote:
Kami wrote:

TO ANDREW AND TEDEHARA : Tohei Koichi Sensei was awarded 10 th Dan personally by Kaiso who died soon after. After a year of mourning, the Aikikai recognized that rank and issued the only certificate of judan from that organization.
What about those post mortem promotions to Osawa and Shirata? They both would have been processed by the Aikikai, just like Koichi Tohei's rank, wouldn't they?

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 03-07-2001, 04:14 AM   #30
Kami
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Cool TO LOUIS AND TEDEHARA

TO LOUIS : No offense taken...
TO TEDEHARA : You're quite right. Besides Tohei Sensei, Aikikai has awarded judan to Shirata Rinjiro and to a few others.
Best regards

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 03-07-2001, 04:25 PM   #31
Chuck Clark
 
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To Mr. Ehara,

The last Kodokan Judo judan was not Kiyuzo Mifune. His name was Sumiyuki Kotani. Great judoka, human being, and teacher.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 03-07-2001, 04:32 PM   #32
andrew
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Quote:
Chris Li wrote:


It's hard to say, since they're completely different systems. Personally, I equate it to at least a 10th dan because it implies *final* certification
Chris:
The Menkyo Kaiden was the certificate that gave a student the right to go off and teach in his own right and unsupervised. 8th Dan was the rank given to the first Shihans who were sent abroad to teach Aikido. There's a pretty convincing argument there that O Sensei felt they were about equivalent.

Andrew
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Old 03-07-2001, 05:02 PM   #33
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
andrew wrote:
Quote:
Chris Li wrote:


It's hard to say, since they're completely different systems. Personally, I equate it to at least a 10th dan because it implies *final* certification
Chris:
The Menkyo Kaiden was the certificate that gave a student the right to go off and teach in his own right and unsupervised. 8th Dan was the rank given to the first Shihans who were sent abroad to teach Aikido. There's a pretty convincing argument there that O Sensei felt they were about equivalent.

Andrew
Well, as I said, it's hard to compare because they're really two completely different systems. The menkyo kaiden (which is much older) is somewhat more than a teaching certificate, it implies complete transmission of the art (that's all there is, there ain't no more).

After 8th dan there are still two more levels of promotion (although you might argue that they are largely honorary).

Morihei Ueshiba sent plenty of teachers abroad without giving them eighth dans. In fact, his whole approach to dan rankings seems to have been less then rigorous. The whole kyu/dan system in Aikido (for general use) was less than 20 years old when he died, I think that the evidence seems to imply that the standards shifted and flexed over the years (as is probably normal for a new system).

Menkyo kaiden, on the other hand, seem to have been handed out much more rarely. He handed out a lot more 8th dans (and maybe even more 10th dans) then he did menkyo kaiden certificates. Now you might argue (with some validity) that this is because Aikido switched over to the kyu/dan system after the war (actually before, but it didn't become widespread until afterwords), but some of the menkyo kaiden at least were issued in the kyu/dan period.

Best,

Chris
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Old 03-07-2001, 08:41 PM   #34
tedehara
 
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10th Dan Judo

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
To Mr. Ehara,

The last Kodokan Judo judan was not Kiyuzo Mifune. His name was Sumiyuki Kotani. Great judoka, human being, and teacher.
Regards,

You're right! When Kyuzo Mifune died in 1965, he was the only Judo 10th Dan. Sumiyu Kotani received his 10th Dan in April 1984, 19 years after Kano's death.

Does that mean Aikikai might come up with another living 10th Dan? Could (Fill-In-The-Blank) be the next 10th Dan?!?

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 03-08-2001, 02:59 AM   #35
Kami
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Re: 10th Dan Judo

Quote:
tedehara wrote:
[BDoes that mean Aikikai might come up with another living 10th Dan? Could (Fill-In-The-Blank) be the next 10th Dan?!?
KAMI : Difficult to believe in that...As you see, there were more than a dozen 10th Dan in judo's history but the majority were indicated more than 50 years ago. My impression is that it gets more and more difficult each year.
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 03-09-2001, 09:03 AM   #36
Dajo251
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I dont know if this has already been asked but if someone is a 9th dan and there are no 10th dans in his or hers prganization the how who he or she be promoted?

Dan Hulley
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Old 03-09-2001, 11:24 AM   #37
andrew
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Quote:
Dajo251 wrote:
I dont know if this has already been asked but if someone is a 9th dan and there are no 10th dans in his or hers prganization the how who he or she be promoted?
It's not relevant at that level, as it's not based on a grading. The Doshu (Moriteru Ueshiba) is outside the ranking system, by the way.
I don't know who decides precisely or why though.
andrew
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Old 03-10-2001, 04:47 AM   #38
Kami
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HOW TO RANK A 10 TH DAN???

Quote:
andrew wrote:
Quote:
Dajo251 wrote:
I dont know if this has already been asked but if someone is a 9th dan and there are no 10th dans in his or hers prganization the how who he or she be promoted?
It's not relevant at that level, as it's not based on a grading. The Doshu (Moriteru Ueshiba) is outside the ranking system, by the way.
I don't know who decides precisely or why though.
andrew
KAMI : The usual process is for the 9th dan group to meet and decide among themselves. It is the same process that happens for the election of a new pope in the Catholic Church. The Cardinals (below the pope in ranking) meet and decide, among themselves, who shall be the new pope. Not to say that it is an easy one...

Best regards

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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